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Subject: (Interview). Subtitle: Holly Dublin. Timecode In: 00:01:26. Timecode out: 00:21:10. Notes: CITES Treaty; Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species; Elephants. Equipment Notes: Split Track recording. 10-16-02 Chadwick interview with Holly Dublin Holly in Switzerland, AC in Little Rock Recorded in 2A 1:19 54321 MARK 1:26 1:39 My name is Holly Dublin and I am the chair of the IUCN species survival commissions African elephants specialist group. I have been the chair of this group since 1992. AC - so that is 10 yrs that you have been the chair of the group HD - that is right. 10 long years. But very challenging AC - What are the proposals now for lifting the ban on trade in ivory? 2:18 HD - as some might be very familiar. There are currently 4 direct proposals on the table from Botswana, Namibia, South Africa and Zimbabwe for trade in ivory. And it is not of course for an absolute opening of unlimited trade it is for a request in restricted trade over a specified time line and under specified conditions. The additional proposal is from Zambia which is requesting that their populations be downlisted with obviously the eventual intent to trade ivory. 2:58 2:59 AC - and why are these countries asking to trade in ivory now? 3:04 HD - well, this is nothing new for these 4 countries. The 4 together represent a very very significant portion of Africa's known elephant populations. These have been populations that have all been in gross, at least over the past 10 years, and for all intents and purposes, prior to that as well. And they are in a situation where elephants are dying natural deaths, elephants are removed through management options and they are accumulating ivory which is all from legal source w/in their countries, and they follow the obvious principals of sustainable utilization believing that their resources should be used and conserved and should the proceeds of that management should be used for continual conservation of the species. 3:59 4:00 AC - why is it that many conservation orgs are against these proposals? 4:06 HD -1 think in general there is a fear that is probably not w/out justification that there continues to be illegal trade, and this illegal trade may or may not be in anyway linked to any actions in southern Africa. Nonetheless we know there is a continuing demand for ivory and that demand will be met and I believe that the general view is that if there is any legal trade it stimulates or allows for further illegal trade. The problem is that that belief system has not actually been authenticated. It continues to be a belief system. It is extremely difficult to make those linkages. 4:50 4:51 AC - So people think that even if you open even a small legal trade in ivory then poachers will start shooting elephants elsewhere illegally and they will get that ivory into the market place and people won't know where it has come from. 5:10 HD -1 think that that is the fear, but I think that also we can't be fooling ourselves. Even when there is no illegal ivory trade going on there is illegal killing of elephants and this illegal killing of elephants, although it may have gone through a decline it appears to be going through another continual rise with or without legal trade, and this is something that we have been tracking for some period of time. It is not dissimilar to what happened when rhinos where also put on appendix one and there was a ban on the trade on rhino horn, and we saw that trade drop off very dramatically to begin with and then over time as new conduits were found, as new deals were done we found that the rate of illegal killing began to increase again. And this is be the killing is demand driven and that killing will continue as long as there is a demand 6:07 6:08 AC - Dr. Dublin, it is a little hard for those of us who are not in Africa and a... (Notes truncated)
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