ML 163400


Interview 4:25 - 28:56 Play 4:25 - More
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Ya Yun Kee (?), Elizabeth Arnold  







Botany discussion.  

Interview 35:20 - 1:03:11 Play 35:20 - More
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Barry Baker, Elizabeth Arnold  







Climate change discussion.  

NPR/NGS Radio Expeditions
14 Oct 2005

  • China
  • Kunming; Kunming Institute of Botany
  • 25.066667   102.683333
    Recording TimeCode
  • 46:51 - 49:00
  • Stereo
    Sampling Rate
  • 48kHz
    Bit Depth
  • 24-bit
  • Sennheiser MKH 30
  • Sennheiser MKH 40
    Equipment Note
  • Decoded MS stereo. Sonosax pre-amps used.

Reporter: Elizabeth Arnold
Engineer: Leo delAguila
Interviews with: Ya Yun Kee [sp???] Deputy Director of the Institute of Botany in Kunming, and Barry Baker TNC climate change scientist.
Logged By: ESN

LdA: this is dat 8 we're back in kunming and we're at the botanical institute and I'm just testing this same rig. We're going to be interviewing the director of the institute. For mics I have a sennheiser mkh40 for my mid microphone I have mkh 30 for my side microphone, going to a sonosax and then also from there into a D-8 recorder.

faint talking

EA informal talking with director

EA: we are in a beautiful beautiful spot and I am sitting here with ... what is your name?
YYK[?]: Ya yun kee [?]
EA: and how long have you worked here?
YYK: Almost two decades
EA: two decades
YYK: Yes I first moved to here 1986. so next year is twenty years.
EA: you've seen this institute change
YYK: very much change took place and funded research [?] and also the infrastructure construction and also the human resources and also the research even, there's great change in this institute.
EA: What happens here at this school?
YYK: pardon?
EA: what do people learn about at this school?
YYK: Actually this is not a school, this is a national institute. It's [??] by the Chinese academy of sciences. You know that is, it usually says CAS Chinese academy of sciences. ?? More than 80 institutes all over the country. So we are five of the institute. ?? So Kunming institute of botany is a ?? of five CAS institute to study the plants.
EA: The study of plants is very important in China.
YYK: Oh yes, china is one of the how you say ?? biodiversity countries. It's a...for Americans one you know easily, brazil, one way the amazon.
This is really rich in biodiversity. But in the ?? china in the mega bio diversity. Rich biodiversity. We have from the tropical to subtropical and also temperate to alpine. So it's really diverse ecosystem and also rich upon the species.
EA: well we went to the alpine part of it, and there were a lot of plants, very high.
The place you've been to northwestern yunnan. It's a part of the we say biodiversity hotspots. You know it's all over the world ?? they have 25 global, they biodiversity hotspots. That place is a part of the ?? central china. Biodiversity hotspots.
EA: tell me a little about the work you've been involved in.
YYK: in northwestern yunnan that I mentioned is the rich biodiversity. But on the other side ?? also it's a economy development the over-harvesting. So it's quite precious to that area. We ?? doing easily, the first thing is to understand what kind of biodiversity is available in that area. The traditional practice for the plant use in that regions and to disturb things?? How we can improve the conservation the initiatives in that area. But in china now is mostly important first things is how to, we have the capable persons to do the research to do the conservation planning that's why we are doing some it is some more capacity building ?? ethnobotany capacity buildings. This is the way we are involved there.
EA: What is your concern there with overharvesting. Can you explain that?
YYK: Oh yes. Over-harvesting if we said always driving by the market. For example in northwestern yunnan in time of the ?? the matstaki one kind of the mushroom export to the japan. It's so important for the locals ?? hold. So its almost every villagers climb the mountain to harvest so this is but however, hard the policy for the distribution and locations of the benefit, This also should be easily ?? equal. The people for the harvester ?? which is a reasonable way for harvesting so these also is important. The third things is the habitat protection is really is really is important for sustaining to harvest the mastaki so I mean this is a ??
EA: how to make it sustainable.
YYK: yes
EA: and not just masataki but other plants
yeah for example, there are medicinal plants and um yes, med, even the white vegetable a number of things
EA: we saw all the markets with the traditional medicine, there was a lot.
YYK: ?? in tibetan in the northwestern yunnan. They have a long practice. Very knowledgeable about the medicine of plants. We are only concern is because they ?? destruction and transforming and the medicine of plants in the future will be certain.
EA: what about climate change, are you guys doing anything with that?
YYK: Personally I am not very involved but I have experience. In 1991 I traveled to the ? land of the Tibetan plateaus I camping there, we explored that area ? My friends is after ten years also explored that area found that there is a great change in that area. For example, it's a glacier How do I say...
EA: recede
I took some photos, once it have a lake, but lake it disappear. More people ?? Desertification. I realized that easily. ?? global warming. Because that area is actually is unpopulated. Because nobody is doing ?? there. It's more it's ?? the climate change. ?? experience. Personally I am not doing so much research
EA: what about the things Jan Salick has been working on?
YYK: Oh yeah actually I just mention, our project is support by the ford foundation it's doing some capacity buildings for the local, the national botanist and also the villagers even including the Tibetan doctors. First things for the graduate students, young scientists or young ethnobotanists the first thing is ?? Lecture, mostly it's from outside china from, mexico us and also from Australia ?? Professor to have short term training class in china. The second thing is that we are also doing something ?? training class for example last year may of last year we have a training class. In the meyong exactly, In front of the glaciers in that area we show our knowledge with the Tibetan knowledge, with the Tibetan village, villagers. So this is most- the capacity building initiative.
EA: important to have conservation and traditional part together.
YYK: yes it's a really important. The first thing usually the Tibetan doctor also do harvesting so they are quite knowledgeable about the plants about the populations about the resources. So that's very helpful for us to understand it ?? the plants is not only ?? the botanists the ecologist ?? scientific experiment but also those Tibetan doctor they are really knowledgeable. ?? and ?? knowledge ?? married together.
EA: and that will make it successful.
YYK: Yes this ?? also the second part is f we're talking about the conservation planning
There also is a very knowledgeable, it's not we as the scientists ?? in your office this is a more easily practical not practical. I mean ?? planning. ?? capable in the local.
EA: how about the Chinese government, are they supportive in this work?
YYK: Oh yeah very much. I think china is one of the country signed the convention biological diversity so in each year the meetings ?? for the protections planning. So our government is a full support of this kind of initiative or the program.
EA: what work are you most excited about that you are doing right now? The capacity building
YYK: Yes yes. I feel most exciting is to share the knowledge with the village
And also the Tibetan doctors. It's amazing I have other background of the plant taxonomy and the so it's not so difficult for me to identify this species, that species, but the local partner, they know more about the plants. Even some easily for the for example the seedling and the fruitings so much more than more than we scientists.
EA: but you scientists can help them
YYK: oh yes
EA: and also they can help you.
YYK: also easily ?? It's also for example we doing some the research for or the populations change. And people can said one plants is they have the rhysome and people realize that if we take the grand part?? Actually no damage to the plants, that's right. But if we overharvest the the plants get smaller and smaller that kind of the population dynamic is what we can show to the doctors and the villagers.
EA: they might sort of know but you can show the hard scientific evidence.
And also ?? for example the photochemical status for specific Tibetan medicine plants
?? Show our research what kind of the compound or the chemical compound. Bioactivity to how do I say to to cure what kind of disease. This people are very interested in -oh!
EA: yes people are very excited...that new building that's going up...what will happen in there?
YYK: that's the laboratory of the phytochemistry?? and actually This is a ?? key laboratory. It's a-- So at least I can say it is one of the best laboratory for the
For the phyto chemsirty in china. In terms of the equipment in terms of the research
in terms of the publication. So very very important work they are doing. You know we just talk more ?? the conservation. On the other side is the development or you can say utilization is also so important especially china as developing countries. So we are
traditional practice of of ethnic medicine or TCM traditional Chinese medicine.
And we doing some research to try to understand what is chemical ingredients that's really effective to certain disease so this also is- My colleague analysis of the chemical compound of the plants and doing some ?? screening biological activity and do Assessment ?? Effective the chemical compounds for ?? development for the other purpose. So plants, chemical compounds, and development. So this is three important work.
EA: and it's a critical part of this institute
EA: Each year more than a hundred new chemical compound were discovered and published by my colleagues.
EA: wow
YYK: yes, quite large.
EA: so you can analyze the compound of the plant and then mimic it, and then you don't need to harvest the plant?
YYK: This is the way of doing, first thing is a chemical census the second is a chemical modification, if really the plants the natural products, we cannot do the chemical census. We also have another ?? botanical garden, they are doing domestication, cultivations so.
The whole institute is important the ?? Plant taxonomy is try to understand what kind of the plants or the plant resources is available in this area. The second is my colleague from the laboratory of phytochemistry doing some ?? for the commercial use or commercialization of the plant products. The third part is the my colleague from the botanical garden doing some more with conservations of the domestication
EA: yunnan known for tobacco. Is the hope that plants will be as important?
YYK: Richer biodiversity provide good opportunity for our development of the plant resources. For the economy development, for the environmental conservation and even for the how do I say, improve the livelihood...
EA: living conditions
YYK: Living conditions yes right.
EA: and that's what you're working towards in the northern
YYK: ?? That's also and the way Chinese we realize easily We have the responsibility to protect our biodiversity. Not only for the country's purpose, but also for the globals. Because the plants endemic plants is only available in this area in this region so we have a moral responsibility to keep those species in our earth village. [laugh]
EA: and that's why capacity building -you're teaching other people so that they can take responsibility.
YYK: oh yes and capacity building is ?? you know you are experts, you are scientists you do the conservation by yourself. That is not enough. We need million million people to involve the conservation planning. So in this case capacity building is more effect than other.
EA: than just doing it yourself.
YYK: yeah yeah. Capacity building is not only benefit now, benefit future.
EA: how did you get involved with plants?
YYK: that's back to the early of 1980s I was from eastern china. From a remote area. That time I liked animal. But my father wanted me to study agriculture ?? a farmer [laugh] I didn't know when I passed the examination?? University. I want to study is animal because in the same department of the biology, I was appointed to study the botany. Anyway, I would like to express my thanks to this person appointed me, move from the animal to the botany.
EA: so you don't regret it.
YYK: no, no not at all. But because the plants is the so interesting so diverse, bring me a good opportunity to travel all over not only all over the country, but all over the world to see different plants to say hello to them. [laughs]
EA: and as you say plants in this region are critical for the whole world.
YYK: oh yes yes, we always say the plants is the endemic is indigenous to the region, but always have global significance. So. I happy in the past decade a number of the international community also make great contribution to china's conservation planning. Such as in the northwestern yunnan, the nature conservancy, the conservation international is a number of the NGO and the donors and make their own contribution to the conservation planning.
EA: because they know it's so important.
YYK: Global significance and also the global force.

EA: tell me a little bit about where we are right now.
YYK: this is the where a new load, from the ?? office to the herbarium. Our herbarium in this institute is the second largest herbarium in China. We host, we keep one point two million specimens from the lichen the mosses, the ?? plants so it's a we have some of the collection collected more than a hundred years ago so great treasures for the research
EA: older specimens
YYK: because the environmental destruction oh habitat destruction, some of these plants are not available in the field in the nature habitat. But here herbarium always have the documentations and so this is herbarium iso important for the biodiversity inventory
EA: Title?
YYK: I'm the deputy director of this institute.
EA: you could be anything...

EA: anything I haven't asked you that you'd like to tell us?
YYK; actually I would like to thank you for you're the interviewing. And I hope more Americans, your audience one day they would like to travel to our province to the northwestern yunnan to see our biodiversity. And of course a precious all of the support and contribution from your audience.

Ambi: birds, crickets?, far-off voices
Ambi: birds, crickets?, far-off voices
Ambi: birds, crickets?, far-off voices

EA, LdA, informal talking

YYK, telling LdA, EA, informal talking about botanical garden being free to general public.

LdA: informal talking about recording ambi. To Lee (deputy director's assistant)

Ambi: chirping birds, crickets?, far-off voices
Car honk in distance
Ambi: chirping birds, crickets?, far-off voices


Street sounds
LdA, EA, BB informal talking about Dequin. About a guy getting caught by police, getting paraded.

EA: how long have you been working here?
BB: I first came here in 2002 for TNC and I've been coming back and forth for short periods time. Last year I was here for six months during our most intense period of study.
EA: and it's climate change that you're focused on?
BB: Specifically I'm focused on how climate is going to effect our conservation strategies but TNC's broader mission is to work with the local provincial and central governments in developing conservation strategies and assisting the government in ways that it can.
EA: are they open to that?
BB: Yes very much so. As a matter of fact in 2002, jon je ming actually met with our country director, Rose Nu and encouraged us to work with the government to develop a national plan.
EA: really, that's what have you anecdotally seen in the years you've been here?
BB: well I first came to china in 1981 so I've seen a lot of change [overlap with EA voice], a lot of change. But specifically in Yunnan um what've noticed is an increase in tourism there seems to be a um a difference in economic status you see a lot more cars now than you used to see, a lot more mobility, just in a short period of time.
EA: how bout on the ground?
BB: ah, on the ground. Um ecological changes happen slowly. Glacial changes happen a little more quickly.
EA: [laugh] which is counter-intuitive.
BB: Yeah big surprise. But we've actually seen and documented changes in both. We have photographic records from the early part of last century that shows fairly dramatic changes in vegetation, um our former science, our director of conservation science, Bob Mosley, who worked here for five and a half years spent a good part of that time retracing the footsteps of early explorers, and taking photographs where they took their photographs.
??: And so from that we've seen changes in montane structures we've- in montane vegetation, we've seen changes in glacier um in glaciers as well.
EA: so we have this one guy joseph rock who came and took numerous photos, was kingdon ward before or after?
??: he was prior.
EA: so we have joseph rock and then we have bob mosley who followed in his footsteps and took a lot of photos in the same place, and what do we notice in those?
BB: particularly we're starting to notice that treelevel and treeline is starting to increase which is consistent with what we are seeing elsewhere around the world. And other changes we're seeing are changes in glaciers um there's a very sacred mountain in the northwest part of Yunnan called Kowagabo or Meli shue shan and we've actually documented changes in the tounge of that glacier
EA: we were there so we have some sense, so we've seen it. But from the pictures you have you've documented that the change has been rapid.
BB: Yeah um weh first had a record of where the tongue of the glacier was in 1998. prior to that it's maximum it went all the way downslope to the Minyong village [?] which is about 2.3 km further than where it was in 1998. In 1002 in my first visit we took some photos there and went back again in 2004 in the fall of 2004 and actually measured how far the glacier moved over those time periods and from 1998 to 2002 the glacier has retreated the tongue of the glacier has retreated about 80 meters. From 2002 to 2004 we measured about 110 meters. So it's actually increasing it's rate.
EA: so we really have proof that for some reason the glacier is definitely retreating faster than it has before.
BB: I should say in addition is that these are temperate, low latitude glaciers, the tongue is melting, um, the rock and the debris is coming to the surface, which makes the glacier darker, collects a lot more energy, so I can't, we know what the tongue is doing. What we can't say is what's happening up in the accumulation zone of the glacier, because we haven't done measurements. Although there have been these types of scientific measurements done on other glaciers actually further south in the project area by the Long Jo[?] institute of glaciology. And what they are finding is that these glaciers that are instrumented are indeed shrinking as well.
EA: what does it tell us that the trees are moving higher?
BB: well it can tell us a couple things but you have to know something about past use. Um we do know that traditionally that Tibetan herders who graze in these high high alpine meadows used fires to control shrubs. Um in the one area where we do have repeat photography, we've documented that the trees are growing up, we know that they used fire, and now we're seeing an increase of shrub in that area.
BB: We know that the climate's changing because we've looked at the climate record for stations around there, and noticed a warming over the last 20 years -a significant warming over the last 20 years. Um so there's probably a synergistic effect with changes in land use history, and changes in climate and right now we're working with to develop a proposal to submit to a scientific funding organization that will be a cooperative effort between the Chinese academy of sciences and a prestigious university here in Beijing, or in china, Beijing university, and possibly Oregon State university.
EA: what is your goal when you come here?
BB: ah, my goal is is to assist our in-country program to try to develop climate adaptive conservation strategies. We're really concerned with the sustainability of biodiversity in this region, but we're also concerned about sustaining the cultural lifestyles as well. Because these mountains are extremely important for the local inhabitants they have economic use, they're used for grazing there are medicinal plants which are collected in these mountains that the people rely on for their own use and also for for income.
BB: And they also have great great religious significance. And people in this region have told us through story and through photographs of their own, that they're witnessing changes, and they're wondering why. So part of my mission is to help answer that question: why, and working with um Chinese national and also international academic institutions to try and answer those questions.
EA: when you say ¿help develop conservation strategies¿ what does that mean?
BB: um, [asks to cut for a second...needs to think.]
LdA: asks for name, and ID
BB: My name is barry baker I guess for this interview, dr barry baker would be fine.
EA: what's your position at TNC
BB: my position at TNC is climate change scientist.
EA: we were talking about climate change strategies and I wanted to understand for my own purposes what that meant.

BB: helping working with nature reserve staff and um or national government organizations who are concerned about maintaining the sustainability of biological diversity, ecosystem services. One of the ecosystem services would be developing land use practices that would maintain maintain the plants and the animals in their native habitat. That's not a very good....i wouldn't use that...
EA: don't worry -it's for me. explain
BB: I can talk about mine, I was trying to explain about TNC in general.
BB: my stuff. Well, what we need to do. What we would like to try to do. Is understand how climate change will effect the rate at which species move around the landscape. People tend to talk about communities moving but species interact individualistically to climate, or other kinds of disturbances. And so what we're trying to figure out is are there thresholds at which we need to identify at which certain species may be at risk.
BB: Um and what mechanisms or what policies, land use practices or management options would a land manager use then to sort of help that species or help that community um whether it's a plant community or a human community overcome the effects of climate change and adapt in the most natural way as possible.
EA: the Chinese government they initiated this ban on tiberharvest. Nationwide. Which is an amazing thing. Is it possible that they'll be able to someday do something about climate change that we couldn't even do?
BB: china is an amazing place and change can happen very quickly. The Chinese government is working very hard to understand what future climate might mean to china. So I think that there is truly a great interest on the part of the Chinese government to try to figure this out.
EA: what are you doing next here?
BB: well, uh we're planning on going into another river valley where we think that people don't use the high alpine reaches in the same way as they do in the more -in the regions where you have just come from in the Dequin areas.
EA: sure
BB: It's interesting because climatically these very very far north parts of yunnan which touch the Tibetan border in the Du Long river valley seem to be um the hotbed of biodiversity. We've got reports from different Chinese scientists who've been in this area and say that there's high high biodiversity there. And if it is indeed true that people aren't using these high alpine meadows for domestic animal grazing then we may have a condition that would be in sort of scientific terms a control.
EA: sure
BB: and we could make comparisons of what the vegetation structure looks like with and without these [EA: Grazing] other types of land use. And grazing isn't necessarily a bad thing. Moderate levels of disturbance through grazing or fire actually in some cases promote diversity.
EA:but to be able to have the comparison.
BB: but to be able to have the comparison is extremely important.
EA: so you're going to scout out these sites?
BB: we're going to try. It's a very very remote area and to my knowledge no one has been quite that far north yet.
EA: so what do you do, you just go on in there and take a look around?
BB: on this trip we'll go in with a very very small team. We'll go in with three members of the local a TNC office here, fun jung don who is the director of the Jongdie¿excuse me, it's changed, Shangrila alpine botanical gardens in Jongdien who's a very good alpine botanist and recognized in thee area. The five of us will go into this area first to see how people are using. If people are not using this area the way that they are in the Jongiden or Dequin area.
BB: Then we'll come back in the spring and actually do some field surveys where we actually collect samples of the vegetation there. We want to go in now even though the plants are sonest. Just to see what the land use practices are. Later when they're actually blooming would be the time then to do the collections.
EA: you've just come from a conference about this that I want to talk to you about. Are people doing this all over the world? Are people in tune with trying to figure out what's going on?
BB: Absolutely, absolutely. In the last few years, mountains have been recognized as the other canary in the mineshaft. Um we've all heard recently about the changes that are happening in the Artic. Well, less documented are the changes that are happening in the mountains and they truly are important systems. They provide many many different ecological reosources for a good portion of the world's population as well as you know being centers for economic and recreational activities.
EA: and spiritual.
BB: and spiritual. Absolutely spiritual. Um the three rivers that run through our project area here in northwest yunnan supply water to ten percent of the world's population. And they all start up on the upper levels or the higher levels of the Tibetan plateau. [honking]
EA: like where we were at that glacier.
BB: and further further north [EA: oh I'm sure] up in the Qin Hi [?] and the northern Tibetan plateau.
EA: but that's all feeding into these rivers.
BB: absolutely
EA: ten percent of the world's population
BB: yeah
EA: and alpine areas are a great indicator because they are so extreme, right?
BB: it's true. They are very extreme environments, and change is expected there, and does happen very quickly.
EA: tell me about Gloria.
BB: it's interesting we have been following Gloria's work in the alps and a group of us here at TNC approached them to come over and see if they'd be interested in helping us set up our own sites here in the ?? mountains. And the ultimate goal of this is to provide another node if you will to the network of sites that are collecting information on mountain systems around the world so we can develop a more comprehensive picture of what's happening globally.
EA: and is that happening? Is this happening on mountaintops all over the world?
52: 30
BB: Yeah people like jan salick and her team and fun jin dong [??] and TNC are just one part of what's going on. There are a couple Gloria sites in the US in the Sierra Nevadas in glacier national park, and there's talk about putting one in the southern Rocky mountains in Colorado as well.
EA: are we getting a handle on this? where would you say we're at?
BB: getting a handle on what, I think would be the issue.
EA [laugh.]
BB: Fifteen years ago when I was doing my graduate work we¿¿we¿ I include myself in that um rather [EA: pompous] BB: lot of hubris I guess.
BB: Our work was aimed towards trying to understand -- even if we could detect a signal of climate change. I think that that's well established in the scientific literature. Yes, the climate has changed. The next big challenge I think was, are people part of the change. I think there's a growing consensus I think most scientists climate change scientists that people are contributing to it. I think the next thing, big question is, so what does this mean in the future.
BB: That's what we're working so hard to try to understand and atmospheric scientists are trying to develop the best models to try to predict these very very complex interactions. We have a wide network of ecologists and zoologists and botanists trying to get an idea of what it means to plant and animal life on earth. Um what we're seeing and especially brought out at this conference is that we're now seeing this synergy of bringing social scientists into the picture to say, ¿what does this mean to humans, because it really boils down to What does this mean to the survival of the human race? You know, and without the diversity that this planet currently offers, the future of the human race could be in question. I don't think that's too far of a stretch, it's fairly basic science.
EA: It's kind of getting past the who's to blame and getting at, well what does this mean?
BB: I think that's the larger question. Pointing fingers will only get you so far. We need to figure out, what is the next step, what do we need to do. And what's it mean to us?
EA: What was exciting about the conference?
BB: I think having some of the foremost thinkers in the world about what climate change means to mountain systems was was truly exciting. And then the synergy that developed.
We in our small group started to formulate the seeds of collaborations in other countries there were 47 countries represented at this conference.
EA: including China.
BB: and china was well-represented. Several different papers from china. So I think that was it. This sort of building synergy. And the possibility of developing a mountain network.
EA: what's your hope with all this?
BB: My hope is that in my small contribution to what I can bring to TNC that our work will allow the people who rely on these very very fragile lands to continue to eek an income off of these lands long into the future and you know provide provide a place of spiritual comfort for their children and future generations.
EA: and that quote tells me that they're very concerned.
BB: Local people are concerned, like I said, these are very very sacred mountains for many many people and they are concerned at what they're seeing
EA: it's traditional medicine, it's grazing, it's just people's lives.
BB: It is people's lives.
EA: and their lives are so much more touched than ours.
BB: I think that's true, but I think that's maybe an overgeneralization. I think people in the US are touched as well. I think we're caught up into -many of us are caught up into the urban environment and don't take time to stop and look. But, there could come a day in the US where we have a park called Glacier National Park that absolutely has no glaciers and someday people will look at it and reflect on it.
EA: what happened.
BB: what happened? Where was I?
EA: what have I not talked about?
BB: I think that's probably it unless you wanted to take more about about TNCs other engagements here...

BB: at the end of this month we've got a workshop that TNC is facilitating on aforestation reforestation looking at carbon...
EA: TNC is coming at this issue in a lot of different ways in china. Is that right?
BB: we're working on alternative energy issues, there's an issue with using biogas stoves. We have like I said we have an office in Beijing which is working no a national level um thinking about what conservation looks like all through china. We have people that are helping think about ecotourism what we're seeing is an increase in tourism in this area not only the bus tours but we're also starting to see a lot more backpackers. You probably noticed when you were in Jongdien that there were these backpacker sort of hostels and you see a lot more people walking around the countryside with backbacks on.
EA: it's ripe for recreation,
BB: it is, it very much is. And I think you know there's an awareness that there's a lot to be gained from this sort of ecotourism but it has to be done in a responsible way. And I applaud the government for recognizing that.
EA: so you guys are really -the heating issue is a good one -you're looking at climate change and diversity, but also let's look at what you're burning now.
BB: it's what you're burning in that the people won't have to go out and collect as much fuel wood. Fire wood.
EA: nothing else?
BB: I'll think of it...
EA: you had some big thoughts...good luck with what you're about to do...
BB: thank you
EA: thank you
BB: and thank you for taking the time to talk to us about this.

Ambi: street, faint hammering, faint honking, car breaks.

EA: one last question...while we were up there and folks were gathering, contributing to this database, all these folks were meeting in Scotland. That data base will be used by all these different people, isn't that right?
BB:Yes absolutely one of the one of the procedures or protocols for the Gloria summits is to feed the data back into a central data base so as I mentioned before, we can use this to sort of do a global monitoring what are the changes that we're seeing, what's it mean, how's it happening. Because climate change is not going to effect every place in the world the same. There will certain places that will change faster, and there will be certain places that will have much more dramatic changes. And there will be certain places that change less. And we're also interested in the places that don't change because those will be the refugia.
EA: and probably help in terms of developing strategies.
BB: Absolutely, absolutely.

LdA, EA, BB informal talking.


LdA changes places
Ambi: hammering, honking.



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