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Environmental Recording 3:10 - 14:27 Play 3:10 - More
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Ocean surf, Personal Watercraft FX  

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Interview 25:47 - 27:48 Play 25:47 - More
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Jumanda Gakelobone  

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Experiences of a Kalahari Bushman  

Interview 37:33 - 1:12:33 Play 37:33 - More
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Jumanda Gakelobone, Marianne Wallace  

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Santa Monica mountains natural history; Kalahari desert  

Interview 1:15:51 - 1:21:15 Play 1:15:51 - More
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Belinda Kruiper, Izak Kruiper  

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South African Kalahari Bushman  

Interview 1:21:19 - 1:44:59 Play 1:21:19 - More
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Belinda Kruiper, VetKat Kruiper  

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South African Kalahari Bushman  

NPR/NGS Radio Expeditions
2 Sep 2004

    Geography
  • United States
    California
    Los Angeles County
    Locality
  • Malibu; Paradise Cove
    Latitude/Longitude
  • 34.019912   -118.78749
    Recording TimeCode
  • :04 - 37:30
    Geography
  • United States
    California
    Los Angeles County
    Locality
  • Malibu; Santa Monica Mountains National Recreation Area; Nicholas Flat
    Latitude/Longitude
  • 34.04723   -118.93361
    Recording TimeCode
  • 37:32 - 1:52:42
    Channels
  • Stereo
    Sampling Rate
  • 48kHz
    Bit Depth
  • 16-bit
    Recorders
  • SONY TCD-D8
    Microphones
  • Sennheiser MKH 40
  • Sennheiser MKH 30
    Accessories
    Equipment Note
  • Stereo=1; Decoded MS Stereo

Show: Kalahari Bushmen Hike
Log of DAT #: 1 of 2
Engineer: Leo Del Aguila
Date: September 2, 2004

MW = Marianne Wallace
JG = Jumanda Gakelobone
Roy = Roy Sesana
Izak = Izak Kruiper
BK = Belinda Kruiper
Fat Cat (FC) = VetKat Kruiper
JM = John McKinney
Rupert = Rupert Isaacson
AC = Alex Chadwick
LD = Leo Del Aguila

Ambi (00:03:08): ocean ambi, sound of waves crashing on shore, water pouring from something, waves crash loudly, in background there is a faint buzz, like an airplane, then a louder buzz/ rumble like a jet ski engine. Waves continue to crash, water continues to pour, as if pouring from a short waterfall.
(5:15) car door slams. Can faintly hear birds also, but ocean ambi combined with sound of motor is strong, loud, dominant.
(6:40) car door slams again.
(7:16) Loud waves crash,
(7:30) seagulls call. Motor continues to roar.
(8:00) another good crash of the waves followed by a seagull talking. They seem to follow the waves' crash on shore.

Ambi (00:14:27): Ocean Ambi fades¿
(14:30) LD: Okay, I'm at the beach and the Bushmen are actually walking up to the ocean so we'll see what happens.
(14:40) Ocean ambi comes back up, can hear faint talking of Bushmen in background, while waves are crashing, pulling in and then rolling up and crashing again. Faint talking continues in background, seagulls calling in background also.

Ambi (00:19:40): Ocean ambi fades, comes back up. People talking, translating, do not know who it was. Woman's voice. Talking about natives getting salt from ocean. Cell phone goes off. Woman with South African accent talking. Talking about nori (seaweed?) S. African translating story about woman using seaweed in ancient times, sounds like story of Adam and Eve.

Alex asks woman to identify herself.

MW: (24:11) Marianne Wallace, I'm a natural science author and illustrator. My name is spelled MARIANNE WALLACE.

Tape fades, comes back at about 25:00

Ambi (00:25:00): ocean ambi again, sounds of waves crashing.

LD: What are we doing Alex, for Julia's sake?

AC: (25:47): We are taking some pictures of Roy here who is finding out about the Pacific Ocean. Here he is all the way from the Kalahari Desert to the Pacific Ocean. He has just taken off his shoes and walked down the beach here to try out the water. Sound of people talking in background, sound of waves crashing. Just before a rather large wave crashes, someone says, "It's a big one," and then we hear the crash of the wave. People talking, a children calls out in background.

AC: (26:52): Jumanda have you been to the Ocean before?

Jumanda Gakelobone: No, this is my first time to come to the ocean, and I think it looks very lovely, and I enjoy to be next to the sea. I usually see this on television, people playing on the sea, and so it is very nice for me to be here, and see with my naked eyes and to feel sand and the water itself, all that stuff. So, ¿?¿ very lovely to me, to be here.

AC (27:24): A long way from the Kalahari.

JG (27:25): A long way from the Kalahari. And where I'm from, you never get ¿?¿ water, running up and down, day to day like this.

AC (27:36): You never see the later run up and down like this.

JG (27:37): Yay, we only see a little water, on the plants, and rainy times, but at times there is no water at all, no surface water at all. Ocean ambi has been in background throughout interview, waves continue to roll up shore and crash, people talking in background, laughing.

AC: (29:34) Jumanda No! (Laughing)

Ambi: Laughing close to mic, sounds like running away from waves, laughing, waves continue to crash¿nice moment.

AC: (30:16) Oh, Jumanda! AC cries out right before large wave crashes, can hear on mic. Laughing off mic.

AC: (30:23) He doesn't really seem to get that the waves are coming and they are getting bigger. He doesn't know how to swim and I am afraid he is going to be in the water pretty soon. Laughing and talking in background, waves continue to crash and roll.

(33:25) South African voice telling Bushmen that they have to go but will come back, later to see dolphins¿explains what dolphins are¿

tape fades in and out

(34:00) LD: Still at the beach and these guys are kind of dancing. Voices in background, laughing. Waves continuing to crash in background, ocean ambi continues steadily throughout. Rupert is talking throughout off mic, so is woman with South African accent¿

Rupert: (36:40) Alright, off we go group!

Tape fades in and out¿

Ambi: (37:40) sounds of walking. Woman says: for the rest of your time in the Western United States you will have blisters and soars¿she is describing what people may see on the hike.

AC: (38:29) We've just brought the Kalahari Bushmen up here in the Santa Monica mountains, a couple of miles up from the beach to a place called Nicholas Flat. It is a meadow kind of are way up on the top of these mountains we'll walk out about a mile a half and have a great view of the Pacific Ocean below us¿ We brought along this naturalist Marianne Wallace because the bushmen are great naturalists, they live in the outdoors, they know the outdoors, so she is going to able to explain plants and various animal tracks and other things we may run across here.

Ambi: (39:20)MW talking off mic about rattlesnakes, AC joins in conversation.

LD: explaining that are just at beginning of trailhead.

MW: talking off mic about the plants that burned in that area, talking about the fact that it is important for the health of plants to burn, but people have stopped that burning which has changed the natural landscape. Talking about huge fire in past decade.

(43:30) Another bushman is talking with MW, perhaps a South African bushman, talking to MW about the dangers of human beings in areas stopping the natural way from taking course.

MW: (46:00) These canyons that you see here, well these are artificial a little bit because of the road but even before the road was here you can see that there was a natural canyon here. A lot times you'll see the plants here in this dry chaparrals area along the canyons, growing along the canyons, and this is a place where you'll see more of the birds, the hawks, and some of the smaller animals, like the foxes, so if I wanted to come out and study some of the smaller animals I'd look for canyons and I would look for water, because we also have very little and just the same, the animals will come to the water.

(47:00) Bushmen speaking among themselves¿

Jumanda: We do have some of this¿a lot of grasses¿but we used to have that, and we used to suck water to make that drink¿

MW: (47:47) the grass is hollow, on the inside?

Jumanda: (47:49) Yes, the grass is hollow¿?¿ sometimes you just cut stick¿?¿

AC: (48:03) Did you do that when you were a young man?

Jumanda: (48:5) Yay, I had to do that a couple of times, probably in the 80s, the government started ¿?¿ a lot of water and resettling people at one place in the 80s. But before the 80s we were nomadic, we were moving up in dry season and rain season.

AC: (48:28) You moved around with the season?

Jumanda: (48:30) Yay, season, and in troupes, so when I was still young, four, five, seven years, I used to go do these things before I go to school, I started my schooling in 1985, so I have to go for boarding schools, and I will have to go three or four weeks, on holidays, and then go back to school.

AC: (48:50) So you'd go out to the desert.

Jumanda: (48:51) Yay, I myself have spent seven years. There are other settlements, the school was built in '82 to '85 was finished, so after '87, '89 I was studying there, but also I was staying deep inside the desert, so there was a bit developed, but it was still in the ¿?¿ reserve, there was the borehole, the clinic, the ¿?¿ ¿

AC: (49:19): ¿A borehole, that's like a well where you got water¿

Jumanda: (49:23): ..?¿ it was a normal borehole, drilled and pumped, water pumped, I think a lot of people knows what someone famous ¿?¿ Dr. Silvava in the ¿?¿ government, he do some research, he was a ¿?¿ district commissioner in that area, he went there, he was the first person to meet with the Bushmen, in touch with, bring them back to that borehole, and then some of them when the government coming to independence, then people have been asked to stay there and take the kids to school and stay there. But there were still some who were staying from different sides, and I was from there, so I used to enjoy going out when I was still young with my grandfather in some part, of hunting, and some cutting, so I learned a lot of better things, like if you do some hunting there, like wind directions when you hunt. If the wind was coming this side, I have to go to where in the side where this wind was going. Why? Because if the animals come to this side they can smell me, if I'm on the side where the animals were coming from. So I have to go to where the wind is going so then my smell goes away from the animals. They can smell you from a distance, then they'll run away, so that is how we hunt, so we can get close to the animals and shoot, because then they can not smell you.

AC: (50:56): And you hunt with a bow and arrow?

Jumanda: (50:58): Probably I have not done a lot, I my self have not done a lot with a bow and arrow, because in the seventies, late seventies and early eighties, the government said this was not to be used because they said it was poisonous, it can harm other people and also so, ¿?¿ so people get other use of bow and arrow. Anyway, yes it was very good, for us, because you have to cut, you have to take that poison, you drink it, ¿?¿ you have to drink it, and they have to cut someone on your body, and then put it, that stuff inside, so then if it cut it cannot harm you, even though if you eat the meat and rub your eyes, it cannot harm you, because it is already in your network.

AC: (51:46): So you drink some of the poison yourself?

Jumanda: (51:49): There have to be someone who is trained for that and have to control that on your body so that it cannot affect you, I have not, if it cut me, and I have not drinken it, then I have to run to that person then can control it in my body, it will not kill me.

AC: (52:06): you mean, if you went to Roy, if you got this poison on you, then you could go to Roy and and he could save you because he has drunk the poison?

Jumanda: (52:16): Yay, okay.

AC: (52:21): Well, here we are at Nicholas Flat. Would you like to walk and see if we can find some animals?

Jumanda: (52:28): Sure, probably, yay, we would like to. (AC: Okay)

Ambi (00:52:33): Footsteps shuffle away, faint talking in background, faint hum of insects in background, constant throughout.

AC: (53:07): First, identify yourself as to how you would like us to identify you.

John McKinney: (53:12): I'm John McKinney, nature writer and hiking expert, and we are now in the Santa Monica Mountains recreation area which is a national park land, the only Chaparelle Mediterranean ecosystem in the entire national park system, at a place called Nicholas Flat, at about a 15 hundred foot elevation in the Santa Monica Mountains, and the Santa Monica Mountains are the only major mountain range to bisect a major city in North America, so it is a wilderness within reach of 12 million people.

AC: (54:00): Didn't you tell me once that Nicholas Flat is your favorite hike?

JM: (54:04): It's my favorite hike because a trail rises from sea-level to 2000 feet, and the number of ecosystems and plant communities you witness as you hike from the coast to the crest is extraordinary, and I'm hoping that we see a few of these flowering plants, all be it that it is September now on our little walk.

AC: (54:35): Great, thank you.

Ambi (00:54:37): footsteps, can hear MW in background talking about the color of the leaves of poison oak. More footsteps, MW's voice gets closer to mic, voice comes back on mic mid-sentence. MW: "Some predator, maybe a fox, it's not tight, it looks like it got stepped on, yay, this you probably see this also, you know that comes from the animal. We have, to have an eaten furred animal like this, let's see, what do we have that's gray, a mouse, squirrel, they look like rats but with bushy tails. This, I imagine this might have been a, well it had to have been a coyote or a fox. (Rupert, off mic: could you explain what a coyote is?) Yes, well, I said a coyote, for this earlier, they look like a dog, they are about this tall, (Jumanda translates to Roy) They are the color of the dirt, (Jumanda translates to Roy) and they have very big ears. (South African voice: well, maybe some journalist was eaten. Laughter) (Jumanda translates to Roy) (Rupert: they are like a jackal but a little bit bigger.) again, shuffling footsteps.

Ambi (00:57:30): JM and MW in background occasionally. MW: It doesn't look very good here, I saw sage¿

Ambi (00:58:00): Shuffling, footsteps, low talking, insects continue to hum in background. Someone is speaking rather musically, maybe singing softly while others talk. Someone sings, one of the San, while MW talks. MW: ¿might be from a prickly pear cactus¿

AC: (1:00:14): ¿And what do you think ate them?

MW: (1:00:16): I'm just trying to think, there is also some hair in there. (Jumanda translates to Roy) And I know that some animals will eat, coyotes, raccoons, some of the animals we have will eat animals and plants, and I don't know, I will have to think a little bit more about that and what it might be, but you can see that the animals use the regular trails that the people use also. One thing about the plants around us, the vegetation, is that it grows really close together, and people have a hard time getting through here, and a lot of animals do too, so they will obviously use the easiest place, so trails, in the early morning, or late in the afternoon if your quiet, would obviously be the best place to watch animals, especially very very early in the morning. A lot of our animals are nocturnal, which means they are only out at night, partly because of this heat that we have, they seem to be out a little bit more in the day if there is water or earlier in the season, but this time of year, you'd probably have to be out here very early in the morning or just as it is starting to get dark.
Rupert (1:01:49): I wonder if that is wild pig?

MW: (1:01:52): I don't know that we have any wild pigs, I've never heard of wild pigs in the Santa Monicas, but it has to be an animal that will eat both plants and animals, unless it is¿

Rupert (1:02:04): ¿human. (laughter)

MW: (1:02:05): I was thinking unless the animal is grooming itself and has hair inside from its own fur. I know that raccoons will eat some animals and plants, and raccoons are about the size of a dog, of a small dog, they are brown with a black mask on their face¿(translation) (Rupert: It's like a civet, like a large civet cat.) (translation)

Ambi (01:02:40): More shuffling footsteps, a plane's motor in background, insects buzz, a bird caws.

MW: (1:04:56): ¿It's called a fence lizard because it often sits on people's fences or on rocks, it is also called a blue belly lizard, because underneath it has this bright blue¿(translation) lizard¿(translation) that's about as big as they get, they don't get much bigger than that, they are very¿(translation)

AC: (1:05:48): What does Roy say?

Jumanda: (1:05:51): We have some kind, little bit, looks like this one¿(AC: you have one that looks like this one) Yay, but it has got a green head, so like this¿?¿ the head¿( AC: the head goes up, he pops up his head¿) Yay.

AC: (1:06:11): That one doesn't seem very frightened of us does he?

Ambi (01:06:15): More shuffling footsteps, faint murmuring talking¿

(1:08:47) tape fades out and then in¿One of the San asks Alex about bathrooms¿ San speaking to each other close to mic, no translation¿

Translator: (1:10:26) He is saying this grass is dead, Bushmen's soil is dead is well, (AC: The bushmen's soil is dead as well?) Mmm, so if you burn it, when the wind comes it is going to scatter the grass, and then there is going to be sort of soil erosion, and then the soil is going to cover the dead grass, when it rains this is going to act as manure, and you will get very good grass.

AC: (1:11:00): Burn this grass, I guess they used to burn the grass here, the Chumash Indians used to, but now it is park land and they don't burn it anymore.

Translator: (1:11:11) That is what he is saying, that the soil is now dead. (Roy speaks some more.) He says it is a global problem, the one of not setting bushes on fire, and they have given up, because back home they are not allowed to burn the grass and the felt or the bush.

AC: (1:11:45): But they want to, he says, they should burn it¿

(1:11:48) More translation¿

Translator: (1:12:11): Yay, if they get the right to the land they will, because they want to treat their animals and their soil, and he believes by doing that the animals and soil will be treated.

AC: (1:12:24): If they, if the bushmen got the rights to land back they would start burning again because that is the proper thing to do?

Translator: (1:12:30): Yay, that is what he says, yay. (AC: yay)

JM: (1:12:42) The worst fires we've had here in California have been caused, many of them, by what are called controlled burns¿ (voice trails off)

Ambi (01:12:50): More shuffling footsteps, a plane's motor in background, insects buzz, a bird caws. San speaking among themselves, Rupert speaking with them, (1:13:58) laughter¿) AC: talking about dropping off stuff, about where to go. JM: it's a great big circle. AC: right, it doesn't matter which way you go. People shuffle noisily past microphone.

****Begin interview with South Africans****

(1:15:41) tape fades out and then in¿South African female voice talking to AC and other South African Belinda Kruiper, she is translating for Izak

AC: (1:16:24): So could you hunt here? More translation¿

BK: (1:16:49): Yay, he says you could hunt, but it would be a difficult hunt, because of the density, and also the animal spots you probably before you see him, and even if you do see him he still has the chance to move and you can't run that fast hunting him in this situation. They were in the Seedaberg (sp) in the Kahakama (sp) in a similar sort of valley but more stony, and it was also difficult to talk the sport, by chance you could see the deer going off in one direction¿?¿

AC: (1:17:20): So he has already seen a deer trail here

BK: (1:17:22): Yay, just as we came up, off to the left¿

AC: (1:17:27): Are they, is he a good enough outdoorsman that he could make a bow here, that he could fashion a weapon here and hunt?

Translation¿

BK: (1:17:52): He says that as he came up the trail as we are walking he has noticed different trees that he could use to make a bow. Translation¿ So, has anybody got a knife? (AC: I didn't bring my knife.) If any body has a knife if he sees it again we just need to cut it and then he can just show you. Translation¿ I don't know if anybody has a knife with us, but if not then he'll show you anyhow, he'll try and show you.

AC: (1:18:23): Just, before we go any further, I have to do one piece of business here¿(asks her to identify herself and Izak.)

BK: (1:18:42) I'm Belinda Kruiper and I am married to a Bushman in the Kalahari, on the south African side VetKat who is also Rafhostan (sp) Kruiper, and I am also interpreting for the South African Bushmen on this journey. And this is Izak Kruiper, and I am going to ask him to introduce himself in his mother tongue so you can hear the language that he speaks.

Izak identifies himself¿

BK: (1:19:22) That was basically that he is Izak Kruiper and he is a Bushman from South Africa Kalahari area and he is very happy to be here.

Izak replies: Thank ye¿

BK: (1:19:32) He can say thank you, he has learned¿ Translation¿ Thank you very much.

AC: (1:19:42): Izak, I have been here many times, to this place, to this meadow here, but already you know more about the area than I do, you are a better outdoorsman on this meadow than I am¿

Translation¿

BK: (1:20:37): He says from his side, if you are a nature person like hisself, when you walk, you feel the plants, you feel the trees, so even though he is here in the Malibu mountains, is that right, the Valley here? It is not his world, but being a nature person, it is in his nature, so he feels and through feeling he will look and his eye will spot something. So it is about feeling the energy more than knowing it. (AC: You mean he feels an energy¿) He will feel the trees and the plants and that will draw him to it and then he has his ways of just knowing. He doesn't need to know an area because it within nature, it is within him.

Translation¿more talking between BK and VetKat and Izak for a brief period of time, a plane flies overhead. More footsteps through brush¿
BK: (1:22:34): that's a dog, definitely a dog, this one¿ he thinks it looks like a porcupine, but it is very faint. South Africans speaking to each other, Belinda talking faintly. They must be looking at tracks together, trying to name one in particular¿

BK: so it is porcupine¿(Rupert: There is an American porcupine, but they say it is not here¿) ¿(1:24:15) BK: That looks very similar to a jackal¿(Rupert: probably coyote¿) South Africans, BK, Rupert, AC talking among each other, someone is clicking photos, can hear shutter clip.

AC: (1:25:07): And you can tell it is moving in that direction? BK: Yay, you can tell¿

Rupert (1:25:11) What was going on his mind? ((laughter)

AC: (1:25:14): This is, to me, this a sandy track we are looking at, with loose dirt scattered in it, the only tracks I can see are sneaker prints, because people have been wearing their shoes here. Translation¿

Jumanda is talking close to mic throughout, talking to perhaps Roy. AC is talking to BK and Izak.

BK: (1:25:37): He thinks the water must be down here, if they are moving in this direction (AC: that's right) He is thinking the water should be down here somewhere¿ (AC: He's right, there is a pond down here about half a mile away.) More translation¿ BK: (1:26:07): Okay, because near the water they can also get opportunities to find animals that they can prey on, that they can eat. (AC: we'll walk on¿)

BK: (1:26:18): Fat Cat is calling the birds. They get quiet, can hear Fat Cat calling for birds faintly¿ BK: He has probably spotted a bird¿ everyone is very quiet, can really only hear ambient sound of place. Begin to speak again around (1:28:00) then get quiet again. (1:28:29) He was just totally in the silence, when we left him was talking to the bird, connecting to it. See, it is coming closer. Do you want him to introduce himself as well?

Translation¿

BK: (1:29:10) He is just saying that he is feeling so hot that he won't get a word out, he was busy calling the bird now. Translation¿ just catching a breath¿ He says he was just sitting under the tree where we just spotted him¿watching nature, just watching, he feels the heat rolling into him¿if he feels like this here now, how does it feel like in the Kalahari where he is¿he says he remembered that in the Kalahari, in certain dune straits you also don't get any air, you feel like you enclosed in an oven¿and then as you come to the next one, the air comes, and he says he is feeling it now again¿so there is no difference when you are in nature, it doesn't matter where you are¿He's got a nickname and I want him to say it¿His nickname back home is "Long life together is one," and also "America." So when we flew, he said he was coming to claim his country.

Fat Cat (1:31:27) ¿and my special name is Fat Cat¿(BK: Fat Cat is his special name¿) translation¿ BK: says his Bushman name for Fat Cat¿

Translation¿

BK: (1:31:47) Okay, I asked him what he did under the tree, and he said he was doing what he had to do. So he was connecting here, so by calling on that bird and that bird responding it was just a communication to and from the Kalahari.

LD asks them to repeat what they have said, having difficulty on the tape with the channels¿

BK: (1:32:57) Yay, Fat Cat was sitting underneath the tree, and he said he was doing what he had to do, and that was in a quiet moment by himself connect with nature here, and he imitated a sound of a bird, and the bird responded, and we all stood listening, it got clearer and clearer, but it was a direct call, because that bird being the messengers will probably go and there will be a message back home to the Kalahari, and now he says he is having a smoke right here and he will be very careful.

Translation¿

BK: (1:33:39) He says he will be adaptable to any any forest, any place, nature, main thing is don't tell him don't go there, don't go there, because he knows nature and he will be able to survive in it¿he says if he can't go through the forest and walk his own pathway through it, how is he ever going to know what is on the other side, so he has to go through the forest and take his own way in order to see what is on the other side. He said if he has to take this man made foot trail all day, he'll never know if there is a ¿?¿ lying dead, or a ¿?¿ or something, or a human being sitting with child¿he says if he could just be in the bush, in the felt¿ he says now and again go to the cities in the west, but where he wants to be is in the bush¿he says he is better off in the Bush¿ he can hunt, he can be happy and just be himself¿he says because of circumstances, you have got to hunt money today, he has got to come to the cities¿he can't hunt his game anymore, he has got to hunt money now¿and he says when he asks for the money, and for what his rights are, he has got to ask for the lawyers and ministers and all sorts of stuff, he says at what stage does it come directly to the people anyhow. So it is talking about the issues while we are here¿you ask for the help, but what stage does it come directly?¿And you hear about money coming and money coming but you also don't see it¿He says now you have to jump up and you almost have to forget your people or speak about your people to plight their case, but you not strong enough to do it, you still riding, you can't even take care of yourself but you have to mention your people. He says you have to leave your people behind, they are hungry, you are hungry¿ you go from home¿and he says when you come back home your people are looking, what have you got, what have you got to declare?¿and then you still can't take anything with¿.he says you go you have wonderful times, you eat, you enjoy, but when you go home, you still have the same situation¿so it's a plight of give directly to the people so they can go home with the gifts and the blessings, and that is what Roy has also been saying¿he says that it doesn't help being the head of his people, and being the family member who must provide, and by the time he gets home he has finished everything, they get nothing, so you have to be fair to the people back home as well¿He says when he came to a sensible age, the old years, all he does is live off the land¿now he can't hunt any more like the old days¿he doesn't want to go to the shop every day for flour and things to make bread, but there is no choice¿he says there is a saying, "you've got to jump into the white man's car(?) call(?) and then maybe go to jail¿and what does it tell him about his life as a bushman?¿ if he had his freedom, a free life, this maybe wouldn't have happened¿stop researching bushman, leave him as he is, and let him continue with his own life. Give him what belongs to him, don't ask questions, he will know what to do¿And then you can note, watch them and see what they are going to do and they'll show the world¿.he says he sees old bushmen that's just been left alone, no questions¿give if you want to give that peace to them, and watch them¿the bushmen has never a camera, the privilege of taking a camera anything to focus it on anyone else¿and that is his message to America¿Fat Cat's cause, his vision for his people is that through art the healing will come, and he has a collection of paintings, although in modern medium, and using modern paper and ink, it is totally tranced images, very alive on paper, he has seen it, and his vision is to set up an art gallery and an art center, ad to keep a heritage for the children, because in his journeys he has noticed that all over people protect heritage and they have museums and things, but no where in the Kalahari is there other than the people, and he says we must take this from the white person, as he says it, we also have to have a living people's museum and know that one day it will be there for the children, and that is his vision. That's why he is in America, and he is very happy to be here.

FC: (1:40:26): Mmm, cool.

BK: (1:40:28) It's cool. (laughter) BK: Thank you Fat Cat¿

Tape fades in and out¿

(1:41:02) AC: So what does Fat Cat say?

BK: (1:41:09): He was just, Fat Cat was just telling Izak that something is calling him to go down, there is a very powerful force down this valley and it is pulling him, but Izak rather warned him to stay because we don't know the world that way¿you must respect, yay, he says it is very strong so it is best to respect it¿BK and Fat Cat are talking about going down, taking a picture. Arguing about whether or not to go down¿BK: have you got medical insurance?¿Laughter¿BK: The biggest law in nature is respect¿speaking about respect and nature¿AC asks BK how many languages she speaks,(1:44:20) she says the Bushman language is difficult to interpret because it is a parable language¿ "so they will paint something when they come from the felt, and it is a life lesson or something. Fat Cat doesn't do well in cold clinical interviews¿" (AC: Carolyn was very smart to bring us here¿)

****END OF INTERVIEW WITH SOUTH AFRICANS ****

Ambi (01:46:00): Continuing walking¿talking¿walking towards pond¿(1:49:35) trying to figure out where they are going¿

(1:50:30) Jumanda and Roy are speaking¿

CJ: (1:50:43) Can you just tell us what we are seeing?

Jumanda translating for Roy: (1:50:57): Ah, I'm seeing white things like clouds coming out, so I think that is coming from the ocean¿I'm seeing some certain tracks coming from the hills and going out¿and some buildings¿that's what I'm seeing...If I try to look down it gets (laughter)¿that's all I can see¿ ¿?¿ the ocean coming in and making some clouds coming out¿

TAPE ENDS 1:53:08

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