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Reed Bowman, Glen Woolfenden  

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Florida Scrub-Jay  

NPR/NGS Radio Expeditions
20 Nov 2003

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  • Archbold Biological Station
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Show: Florida Scrub Jay
Engineer: Josh Rogosin
DAT 6
- Reed and Glen catching scrub jays
Date: November 20, 2003

RB = Reed Bowman
GW = Glen Woolfenden
CJ = Chris Joyce
JR = Josh Rogosin

RB :35 Here comes one from the distance - oh no, that look like a flicker

GW: Here that tick tick tick? ¿.only females do that¿.

CJ- are they drawn to us particularly?

GW - they are yeah, but you see if this family is drawn from us from here - and then they see the neighbors

RB - they will get up on the top of the oaks like that so that the other birds will see jays and say - wait a min. - this is our territory.

1:18 - there are a couple of no bands here

(JG - can you tell us about those tickings?

1:23 GW - we call it the hiccup call bc that is what they called it before we started working on it. And it is only given by females and it is given by females under disturbed conditions. So, here is English translation of the hiccup: mate, I see someone in our territory, go chase them out. Or mate, I see you chasing someone out and I am all for it. 1:57

CJ - it could be us or the other birds?

GW - it is the other birds - they aren't upset about us.

CJ - I have noticed that sometimes their posture changes and their tales go up. Well, when the female gives a full hiccup, she points her bill at the sky and bobs her head up and down. And I have seen them do it when they are on the ground and they bob so hard, their feet leave the ground. 2:21

2;22 GW - Territoriality in the jays is a case of responding to somebody that has come in which is very different from other birds, where they go around and sing and it says this is my territory. These birds show where their territory is by being present by being seen and not necessarily heard. But then when somebody moves in then they respond with vocalizations and the call you heard at the beginning of this - the PSSHT PSHHT PSHHT - that is the territorial call. 3:03 and that is associate with flying towards the aggressor - towards the intruder - and flying in an undulating way and spreading the tail, and all of this is to say, here I am and I am healthy and you better get out of here. And they much rather do that then fight. 3:28

RB - Chris is setting the traps up there

CJ - any evidence that predators actually respond to that display?

3:46 GW - we haven't noticed that¿..what they will do with some larger predators is literally go down and peck on them, and so on. There is a bird wanting to go in¿.come on -

RB - she is gonna go - got it.

GW - got it

RB - Go get her Chris 4:46

GW - Now, I have to get my sheets -

CAR DOOR SLAM

RB - I don't know Glen if I brought any hot bands. Do you have some?

GW - Yeah - don't need them, I don't think.

RB - This is definitely unbanned?

GW - I don't know.

Do you want to do the bird

Ambi 5:30 - unzipping -

CJ - how many birds have you banded?

GW - Thousands - low thousands

CJ - What percentage of the entire species is banded?

5:52 - GW - over the state? Reed - you give him that tiny number.

RB - Well, the problem is we have banded birds over - with Glen's study and our study (GW - is it banded?) and during that time we have banded thousands and over that time how many birds are banded in the state at any given point is actually a fairly small fraction of that bc our population is only a couple of hundred birds.

6:03 GW (while Reed is talking above) - OK - what is its age? (Chris talking - looks like an adult) no. that is a young one. (Chris - tips of feathers show a little brown - on the young of the year.)

RB - see these coverts right here? (CJ - the covert feathers?) yes. Notice how brown they are relative to the primaries - there is a pretty good contrast btwn the blue here and the brown there. It is relative, but if you were to see an adult you would see very little contrast - so this is a young of the year, born during the 2003 breeding season - there is a little bit of size dimorphism, but you can't really tell it. So, what we have here?
( meanwhile: GW - ok, this is a 03 - we have all these blanks to fill. So maybe white and green pull em off for em so that way he's reminded.)

7:20 GW: Seabird dash white-green is a good choice.

CJ: What is that device?

RB - These are just US fish/wildlife service bands. This particular set of bands are pre-opened so they're on surgical tubing rather than just wire. It means they're already opened and I can just slip it right on the bird's leg. ¿ What was the combo?

GW: C-White/green.

RB - so "c" is the code for the silver band

CJ: a lot easier than banding a manatee or penguin.

8:21 FX - [trap?]

8:25 GW - We have to use some combo of colors and the metal band so that no 2 birds ever get the same thing in the computer, so I've banded silver dash white/green 30 yrs ago, but if we change the color for the metal band, then we have it uniquely in the computer. (meanwhile, RB - 1063, 43799, silver dash white/green).

8:58 RB - the trick is (GW: put your finger in front of its bill and see if it's true.) trick w/ banding birds is just controlling them, holding them firmly and it knows it doesn't have a chance of escape, they're relatively calm. We carry a hood for the occasional bird that really gets agitated, but I rarely use it.

GW: there's one way (RB - sorry you already prepped me) that's the answer right there. You hold a bird like this, if you hold em like that, you either hold him too tight and he can't breath and he dies or you hold him too loose and he gets a wing out and he goes away. But if you put his head in there, he can't get away and they kind of know that.

RB - Most of the control of the bird is just w/ these 2 fingers. I'm using all the rest to do other work rather than hold the bird.

9:53 CJ - I'm trying to think of some other object that one holds that way, but I can't.

RB - these are plastic color bands that help us identify the bird.

CJ: 2 bands?

RB - total of 3, 2 color and 1 silver. As glen was saying each bird gets unique combo so that we can tell the individuals apart in the field. The plastic strips are a wrap-around, so they're just a long strip that curls around the leg, but after it's on and sized, we put a little drop of acetone to melt the plastic and seals it into a solid piece. A bird like a jay if we didn't seal it, could probably get that band off fairly quickly.

10:46 GW - you got the trap set, you want to get another? Where's the other trap. (Meanwhile, CJ: fair to say that the bands don't induce any pain? RB - none that we've ever been able to observe. When we first release the birds, they often peck at em and inspect em for a little, but we try and put the bands on so that they slide freely up and down the leg, but tightly so that they can't go over a joint or toe. So we're dash white/green.) (Meanwhile, 11:03 GW - PSHHT PSHHT PSHHT.)

11:36 CJ - that bill looks fairly long and sharp for a bird that size. That's a function of what it eats?

RB - yeah, jays are nut eaters, feed on acorns quite a lot, so they need a stout heavy bill. If you look at the shape of the bill from straight on it has a chisel-like profile and it's good for opening up acorns, but also for opening hard shell from insects it eats. ok, silver dash white/green, take a few measurements.

CJ - what parts of body do you measure?

RB - we measure whole range of body parts, all developed to get general indicator of body size, but some of them also help us distinguish sex, so bc this bird is, we can't tell if it's male/female we get some hint at it from measurements, we take blood sample, and sex can be determined genetically. ¿ tarsus [sp] 37.3

JG - in time working on bird, has process changed at all (RB - length)?

13:05 GW - we've added a few measurements and so on. (RB - 54.5) and the major thing that's different is the genetic stuff. When we started that field didn't exist.

RB - 24.4

GW - we started to do genetics and the first thing we did was see if the young were all the offspring of the behavioral parents (RB - Colman [sp], 24.7), we had to go back and catch all the breeders that we'd already caught and take a blood sample, and that happened in 1987, or something like that (RB - Naris [sp] 16.7) now we regularly take a blood sample when we band the young, so much easier.

CJ - I suppose when you're studying an animal that engages in cooperative breeding, the DNA ID of the sibs and offspring is partic important. (RB - wing, 110)

GW - what we've shown is that the behavioral parents (RB - tail, 138) are the genetic parents, as a lot of birds that don't show cooperative breeding when we check the same thing the behavioral parents are not the genetic parents, so [laugh] maybe maybe not, simple. And once we show that (RB - 20 left) we can go on w/ different analyses knowing who the parents were behaviorally bc the genetics had shown it for a big enough sample (RB - [blowing, then] fat is 1 minus.

JG - what are you doing w/ the feathers?

14:51 RB - we're recording the molt, usually at this time of yr birds have all their wing feathers and we don't expect to see any molt patterns but during certain times of year, they're molting in new feathers in their wings, and a lot of the measurements that we do are also designed to get some idea of fitness of bird - is it in good condition? Healthy? Suffering in some way? Molt is one indication that the bird is expending energy at the time. So if for ex the bird is partic lightweight or it has a relatively small amount of fat deposited, it might be bc it's in the middle of mol [sp] or it might be bc it's in poor health, so we want to know what molt stage it's in, and in this case the bird has all 20 of its wing feathers, 10 primary and 10 secondary, so it's not going thru molt nor do we expect it at this time. So some other things we're doing that also have an effect on the bird's health is to get an estimate of the amount of subcutaneous fat, birds layer of fat immediately under the skin, and it's very noticeable underneath the skin, [blowing]. So if I blow that back you can see that little bit of white patch [blow] in the middle there and that's subcutaneous fat. It's easier seen in the sun. you can see right in the middle there there's a little bit of light under the skin. The dark red is muscle and the light is fat layered under there.

16:34 CJ - I can't say I've ever seen much underneath the fat ¿

RB - well the feathers grow in tracks, they're not evenly distributed across bird skin, so you can remove feathers and look down into skin where feathers don't occur. So this bird has very little subcutaneous fat, again what we'd expect.

CJ - you look for parasites?

RB - the next thing, an inspection of the head for parasites. A lot of times, they're the ears. And in fact there is a little tiny tick, see the back end of the ear that little shiny right by my thumbnail; it's just a little tiny seed tick. Right there.

CJ - when you get this close you see the membrane that rolls back from the front of the eye.

RB - the ¿ membrane. So we'll look under the chin, ears, crown.

CJ - mites?

RB - 2 main ones: the gnit of a fly ¿ and also ticks. So this bird gets 1 minus which means it only has 1 parasite at one location so subjective ¿ use.

17:52 RB - now we're going to take a blood sample. Want me to get the blood stuff ready?

Ambi: Blood sample.

18:55 RB - so what I'm going to do is to extend the wing and expose the brachial [sp] vein. I'm going to need sun here.

CJ - tiny needle?

RB - yes, and all I'm going to do is puncture the brachial vein. ¿ Hopefully.

19:25 CJ - it's a pretty small target. He's cooperating.

RB - yeh, I don't think it hurts the birds at all. Chris is this a 25 or 27? [25]

CJ - there we go, a droplet of blood. And that's ¿

RB - this is a capillary tube and it just allows the blood to be drawn up.

20:14 CJ - steady hands.

RB - I'm getting clotting already, Chris, so use that for the genetics. So for the genetic analyses we just need a tiny amount of blood bc we can actually replicate the DNA so we can reproduce DNA as much as we want.

CJ - you use PCR?

RB - PCR. The rest of the blood samples we're taking are to look for antigens for West Nile Virus. We know it's coming into this area. So far we haven't seen it in the jays at all. Could be for two reasons. 1, haven't been exposed to it. 2, they're resistant to it in some way. So additional blood samples can actually show if they've developed antigens to WNV, means they've been exposed to it, and they're successfully fighting it. if we don't find antigens it just means they haven't been exposed to it yet.

21:30 Bird call.

21:40 RB - just hold a little cotton on there, direct pressure until bleeding stops. It's usually happens while we're still drawing blood. It was already starting to cot [sp]. ¿ we'll just tip that in there. And the last thing we do b4 we release her is to just weigh her.

CJ - this is a really high tech device, a stocking?

22:16 RB - we have to petition ppl at Archbold Biological Station to bring us in their old stockings periodically.

GW - We have to have some female interns. [laughter]

RB - the stockings actually work great bc it's an elastic bag and so it stays tight around the bird and keeps the bird from struggling.

CJ - I suppose an old sock wouldn't do.

RB - unless it was elastic, it wouldn't do as well.

GW - well part of the prob is the also absorb water, socks do.

RB - so this is 76.9 grams.

23:02 RB - And then usually we do just a last double check to make sure we've gotten everything we've wanted to get b4 we release the bird.

GW - let one of them hold it and release it, Reed.

RB - ok, good idea.

GW - who? ¿ slip your two fingers over the top in front of his fingers.

RB - what I'll do as soon as I get the bag out of its grip. I'll extend the head and you come in right over me and I won't let go until you say you feel like you've got control and then you'll just slip it in. (Meanwhile, 23:34 GW - my guess is green/purple is the father of these.)

CJ - I've got it; you want a pic? How bout w/ glen.

GW - of the bird. ¿

CJ - I can feel the heartbeat/respiration.

GW - respiration. They don't have a diaphragm, so they have to move the ribs in and out.

CJ - it's actually quite slow. Slower than I would expect.

24:18 GW - one thing you can try. Turn it so it's on its back. Turn the bird so it's on its back. Then open your fingers. Sometimes when they're put on their back they'll lie there for a moment.

CJ - he thinks he's perching perhaps.

GW - you gotta open up, you want to move your head up. There you go see, [sound of bird taking off into the yonder] there it goes.

CJ - bye. That was great. Success. So you can go out for a day and do that all day long.

GW - sure, say yes.

RB - we'll try. Usually trapping efficiency declines pretty good by noon.

GW - it's when they're hungry that's when you get em.

RB - morning and evening, the best time.

GW - of which morning is best.

25:14 JG - would you guys do some calls to bring some more in? ¿ own vocalizations.

25:36 Start the bird calls. RB - PSSHT, etc.

26:11 RB - see the undulating flight that that bird was making as it came in?

GW - PSHHT ¿(Meanwhile, RB - I don't think they actually thought that I was another scrub jay, they know darn well who I am, but they still advertise their territory, and you can see other jays right there flying on the horizon, and they're doing the same thing that undulating flight, so we're probly fairly close to a territorial boundary here bc both the groups of birds that we've been seeing have been giving that territorial display.

GW - I've got these right behind the truck now. Can you get those down along there.

RB - well we've got 2 groups coming in here now, these from here, and these from here.

GW - it looks like we're right on a boundary line btwn 2.

27:08 RB - [bird calls]. We'll throw some peanuts where they both will go for it, and that might get em going.

GW - see that bird, that flew right through here. That's how much they're afraid of it. PSHHT, etc.

RB - it works. PSSHTT. It's alright, Chris, we got birds here.

27:35 GW - there's some from the North family.

RB - PSHHT ¿

GW - I think.

RB - [clicking bird call]
27:50 Real bird calls, plus RB and GW.

28:23 RB - there's another no-band. ¿ and another. This area is outside our core area, but it certainly helps to have birds on the periphery banded as well bc then we know if a bird should move from here into our population, we'd know from where it came. Most of the birds here that are banded are either bc they emigrated from our area or they're birds that we banded here a while back as the land being acquired. PSHHT. Some of the birds that are here are banded but we use a 3rd color band in our suburban area, we put a black band on every single bird in suburban area. Most ppl don't put black band on scrub jay bc they have black legs and pretty hard to see, but that's an ID for us. If bird shows up here w/ black band, we know it's from our suburban area, and one interesting patterns over the 10 yrs we've done this we've had about 25 birds from the suburban area that have emigrated here to Archibald Natural Area. During that time interval we've never even seen a bird from Archibald in the suburbs. (GW - PSSHT) so it's one way traffic. Out of suburbs to natural habitat. ¿ a lot of human analogies. You don't find a lot of emigration from Westchester to the Bronx, so. PSHHT. ¿

31:00 scrub jays calling.
31:21 RB - [calling.] ¿ blue dash azure silver. ¿
32:05 PSHHT. ¿
32:46 scrub jay continues.

32:58 RB - Chris, just toss em up a little so they seem em.

33:54 RB - there's a suburban. Black dash green purple silver. We knew that bird was here, right?

GW - don't see any, do you?

RB - If you look around, they're all off the tops of the shrubs. Pop right back up.

36:03 Bird call.

36:13 RB - so I see 3 or 4 no bands, I think. ¿ I didn't realize we had traps out. One of the doors is down. 37:17 You see the suburban bird just got chased off. I don't think he's part of this group.

GW - they're wimps.

37:50 RB - one of the doors is down in the trap, Glen.

GW - I saw it.

37:57 Bird Ambi. and breathing/sniffling of RB and GW.

38:51 RB - Little aerial chase there. ¿ PSSHT. 39:25 PSHHT. 39:58 So there's a green purple dash over here, and there's a green purple silver dash black.

40:29 GW - a bird that doesn't mind us being around. They come to us instead of leave, go away from us.

JG - either one of you tell us where we are. What are we hearing around us?

40:54 GW - trucks. What do you mean? About the jays?

41:09 JR - the trucks are louder than the birds.

41:12 GW - right.

RB - there's a fairly major highway. State road 70 just half a mile north of us and it's a lot of truck traffic. There's also a citrus grove immediately north of us and every once in a while there's a tractor working in there and you can hear him as well. And that's pretty much par for the course for reserves all around the state. They're surrounded by roads, agri, housing devel, and even in the very largest reserves, it's hard to get away from the noises of the landscape that surround it.

41:53 CJ - I wanted to ask you about the initial idea of what was it that attracted you over 30 yrs ago to focus on this one species.

GW - It's bc when I found 9 nests, no-banded birds, 6 of the 9 when they had young there were birds other than the two that were the parents feeding the young and that's basically coop breeding and I said this is a subject we don't know a lot about (RB - PSHHT) and here it is 125 miles from where I get paid @ USF instead of being in AF or Australia where a lot of coop breeders occur. And I said this is the place to study them. And the initial Qs were, who helps? So you see a nest, and you got more than 2 birds there, who are those other birds? didn't know at the time. And how do they help? And feeding was the major answer up to that time, but there are other parts to that. And both of those and a few other Qs like, do they help? Are they hinderers or helpers at the nest? And after those things were answered, we were still wondering about why they helped. (RB - We got a bird) 43:24 And why they help occur - you got one? It's one of 2 ways. Either indirectly by raising more birds that are closer related to you, you the helper [Ambi: bird flapping in trap] than other birds in the general populace, and it's the indirect selection, and the direct selection is are the helpers doing things which increase their odds of raising young?

CJ - bc there's really no true altruism ?

GW - the way I define altruism, there's none. 44:02 when you go to the bank, you're an observer, and we're going to watch a species called homo sapiens, and you watch a guy work, you figure out what money is, he works all week and a guy hands him some money. He goes down to the bank and hands it to another guy. Altruism as far as what you see. But you know the banker accepts it for reasons to his advantage and the guy gives it to him for reasons of his advantage. So is that altruism? There's no altruism in there.

(Meanwhile, 44:22 RB - He might bite you. ¿ I've had a few birds draw blood, but for the most part their bite is not terribly strong. ¿ JR - do they end up relieving themselves when you catch them? RB - Very rarely, but occasionally, we have a few.)

44:40 GW - So as far as the direct advantages of coop breeding in this habitat, which is divided up basically into territories, there's no extra habitat, (RB - did Glen leave his sheet somewhere around here?) how do you get a space to breed? And we figured out one way to do it is what we call territorial budding where what we call number 1 son isolates himself in a piece of a territory that he helped develop as a helper, [bird ambi g] and there with a mate from outside he begins to breed so there's a direct advantage and when we have a breeding pair and young and member of pair dies, replacement comes in, now the birds are not as closely related to you as they would be if it were both your parents that are there. They still help. [a young no-band] red/green/c-bird dash red/green.

46:13 Bird

46:46 CJ - so this is an un-banded bird? [RB and GW ID-ing bird] this is the fledgling? Or juvenile.

GW - In a nest last spring.

47:23 CJ - he just held on to you w/ that beak.

RB - Actually I don't mind that bc it doesn't hurt and it keeps his head right where I want.

CJ - I once heard it described as a beak is where the bird meets the world.

47:49 Putting plastic band on. ¿ RB - Prevents it from hanging up on anything or the bird having a focal point to pick at. Silver dash red/green. Really the down side to having the jays pick at your fingers is not that the jays hurt you, but that you get acetone in those little divets. And that doesn't feel so good. ¿

CJ - I guess since they're resident and don't migrate, you don't need satellite or any transition type banding.

GW - one of the big unknowns/aspect of their biology that is most poorly known by us is dispersal.

RB - W/ the bands on them and doing regular censuses, we can tell where they were when we banded them, and we can tell where they move, but what we don't know is what they did in between and the telemetry [sp] can give you info about how a bird actually moves thru a landscape.

CJ - are you going to try to tag them w/ ¿

RB - We have done some of that work in the past, but labor intensive, but difficulty w/ jays bc are coop breeders, there's not a very predicable dispersal time. Other birds you know after you put a radio on it, not long after it gets out of nest, it's going to disperse. But w/ scrub jay it could anytime btwn first year and 3rd/4th yr [battery's dead]. Right. So we've used radio telemetry to look at how birds explore the enviro while still staying home. We know that the young birds frequently leave their territory and go wandering and it's important to know how they wander, where, what kinds of habitats do they prefer?

CJ: corridors to connect patches that are left? That would help?

RB - sure, reserves that are 3 miles apart may not be equivalent in terms of how a jay perceives it, depends on what the habitat is in between. Tarsus [sp] 37.1. Head length 54.7. Head width 23.8. Colmon [sp] 24.2. Neri [sp] 16.6. wing 111. tail 130. 20 left. [blowing] Fat 1 minus. There's another tick, see it right there, seed tick on cheek in front of my thumbnail.

JG - Lime disease?

RB - Not yet. ¿ Parasites is 1 minus. Ready to bleed.

JR - what do you do w/ blood?

54:00 RB - well some gets - eew - put in buffer that will protect red blood cells from breaking and will be used in genetic analyses, and some when we get back to lab will be centrifuged and we'll sep plasma from red blood cells and we can use the plasma to look for evidence of exposure to WNV.

CJ - you don't ID individuals by using a DNA profile? Worth the trouble?

54:40 RB - well, it's been done. That's the way in which we examined whether the offspring were the genetic offspring of the parents, the behavioral parents.

JR - does the blood work happen here?

GW - none.

RB - we process blood here, but all genetic analyses and WNV analyses done elsewhere.

CJ - so Glen we were talking b4 about technologies, you mentioned DNA, are there others?

GW - that have come since?

CJ - not only your work but I'm thinking coincidentally bc we're doing a story about the ESA and you started your work around the same time.

GW - Before. Did I know it was coming? No.

CJ - but in a sense you could track your research w/ scrub-jays and the ESA, and I'm asking ppl what did the act do to change the way field bio is done?

56:12 GW - you'd better ask Reed that. I started studying these bc it was a phenomenon out there known as coop breeding which I can study, now a lot of info that I gathered was useful to conservation. How many are there per unit area? What are the habitats they like? What don't they like? I'm finding all that stuff out and you gotta have that for protecting the species, and what comes next where you ask Reed is now there's money involved. So you ask your questions and now Reed better answer, bc you'll get a neg answer from me.

CJ - But I'm wondering whether you ask diff Q now than you would have before the ESA.

GW - Reed ¿ do that.

CJ - How bout this Q and this is a Q I find non-scientists ask a lot is take someone like yourself who really dedicates a lot to studying one individual species, w/ a tremendous amount of focus, and I think a lot of non-scientists they wonder wouldn't you understand nature more if you were more of a generalist that did broad-based. What do you get that others don't get by focusing so intently on 1 species?

57:39 GW - you try to answer all the questions about that partic species, let's stand back and say why do we study humans so much? Why don't we study everything? We don't know that much about humans yet. That's more true for other species than humans and we don't know a lot about them still, and the other thing when it comes to research is I like ppl to follow their nose. What are you interested in? study that, as opposed to other ways that you can direct your studying.

CJ - Ppl who pay attention to bio look at (RB - let me have another piece of cotton, Chris) at evolutionary bio, like Stephen J. Gould, who's a spokesman for all of bio.

GW - but he looks at snails.

CJ - right, he started w/ the most insignificant organism you can imagine, and I think it was more than just wanting to go to the Bahamas. How do you get from there to there?

58:48 GW - How do you get from studying one thing to generalizing? When you study a species, you're asking Qs to answer, and those Qs become bigger and they then, study coop breeding, you can study that by studying one species in detail or studying a certain Q about a bunch of species. Both are good approaches. Ed Wilson, he looks at ants. But looking at ants, he got interested in the ants of the world, and then he got interested in what's happening to the habitats of the world. now ppl know him as a conservationist. But he's an ant man basically.

CJ - and that is something I did ask Reed about. Unlike perhaps a chemist or a particle physicist, when you're a bio/zoologist or studying animal behavior, at some point you can't help but cross over into becoming a conservationist?

1:00:02 GW - That's not true. I would hope that ppl follow to that degree, but it's not necessarily the case. How bout the biologists that study human diseases, do they give a damn for the enviro? Not necessarily. So I disagree.

CJ - But for ex, wildlife bio?

GW - Now you're going to narrow it down until you become the conservationist, sure. Wildlife bio. when I grew up, it was, how many deer can you raise to shoot? That was what wildlife bio was. Now wildlife bios, their orgs, are putting conservation in their title. Why is that? Why? I'll tell you one of the answers (RB - 72.6). Where the money is. B4, nobody gave a damn about blue jays and crows. So they didn't either. They just worried about deer.

CJ - do you think the ESA had anything to do to get the public more interested in not the panthers/grizzly bears/not the CA condors, but in the snail ¿ the spotted owl, the scrub jay?

1:01:24 GW - the general public became more informed about the problems that conservationists saw bc of the ESA. Now conservation is next door. Let's save it all, except I want to do what I want to do w/ my property. So the snail garter [sp] - yeah, yeah, save it! How about the guys living right by the dam, those are the ones that ¿

CJ - It would seem that you haven't had the same kind of problems w/ scrub-jay that others have had w/ endangered or threatened species.

GW - It's not that rare yet. We'll get all excited about it when it's too late. Now's the time to save it. And how do you save it? you save scrub. You buy it and manage it. and it's saved. It's a simple conservation prob, to save Florida scrub jays right now. We'll worry about it when it's down to a few populations in ppl's backyards. When it's too late basically. And the other thing is the prob of saving the species vs. saving the habitat and the species that live in it. Scrub jays in ppl's backyards is like an outdoor zoo bc you ought to give them some food, put some nests up for them, that's good if the other choice is they're gone, but neither choice is very good. What you want to do is save some of this. Of which scrub jays are the flagship species. If you save scrub jays, in natural enviros, in other words, they're there to live on their own, as opposed to us taking care of them, then you save scrub and all the other organisms that are in scrub.

CJ - Would you say in order to get the popular support to do that, you've got to identify a charismatic ¿ species?

GW - It certainly helps. If we say. Woops - there goes, no, that's a crow [kaw kaw kaw] 1:03:40 This is the habitat of the scrub mint and the oak toad, there are going to be fewer ppl interested in it, than if you say, there's this bird and if you walk out to it, it will come and take a peanut out of your hand, that's exciting to ppl. You're talking to a person that grew up from prior to this worry to post this worry. When I went to Cornell in 49 [wind] ppl weren't worrying about that, a few, but there were a few worrying about everything. But that would come along later. When did the scrub jay get protected? [87] 69. so what happened in between.

CJ - Did you say about time when you heard it?

GW - I supported getting it listed, but I wasn't out there fighting for that. Nor was I opposed to it, that's somebody else's area. [wind] That's another thing and that is ppl that do research and ppl that argue for conserv, those could be 2 separate categories of ppl. One gathers data, the other uses it to further their goals.

CJ - that's the way it should be?

1:05:10 GW - No, I don't mind if somebody gathers the data and also goes to further goals of conserv. Trouble is you're now taking a person and giving him 2 big jobs. So you guys should be conserv - no, you're not, you're newsmen/persons. You are.

1:07:22 Bird flying off.

1:07:50 and on ¿ [bringing the traps in]
1:08:04 GW - So is there room for ppl to just go do the work? Do the gather data in field and answer bio Qs? [to RB] Just set those on, those are mine, I'll set them on the hood if you want. Or do we all have to become conservationists if you don't want to. I mean, if you want to, fine.

CJ - Well, the quandary that I sometimes suspected exists is that again unlike synthetic chemists, physicists, astronomers, the thing you study is rapidly disappearing, which changes the equation, the thing that you love and devote your life to is being rapidly eaten up. It's not as if the stars or chemicals or fundamentals of life are disappearing, we think it adds a note of urgency to the way you are doing research. [loud awful noise]

1:09:18 GW - it either adds a note of urgency or it directs you into saving it. those are different things. I could be a historian. Get this data bc these things aren't going to be here.

(About intern from Harvard, and passing along the scrub .)

1:12:05 GW - Glen Woolfenden, retired from teaching, lives near Archbold Station, and continues his work on scrub-jays at the station. So I'm affiliated w/ the station.

1:12:45 END OF DAT

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