ML 161018


Interview 3:07 - 2:05:07 Play 3:07 - More
Audio »
Video »
species »
Introductory speeches  






International Law Enforcement Academy introduction speeches. Speakers include, Mark Lloyd, Prapat Panyachatraksa, Elizabeth Bennet, Alan Rabinowitz and Chris R. Shepherd.  

NPR/NGS Radio Expeditions
8 Sep 2003

  • Thailand
  • Bangkok
  • 13.74067   100.52538
  • Stereo
    Sampling Rate
  • 48kHz
    Bit Depth
  • 16-bit
    Equipment Note
  • Mono recording converted to 2 channels

Show: Thailand Wildlife Trade
Log of DAT #1, ILEA Intro speeches by A. Rabinowitz, L. Bennett, C. Shepherd
Engineer: Charles Thompson, Recorded in MS
Date: September 8, 2003
ng=not good
vg=very good

3:00 ng

3:24 I hope everybody had a nice trip from home and that you will have a pleasant stay with us for the next two weeks. Today we are honored to have our guest of honor, Mr. Prapat Panyachatraksa, Minister of the Ministry of Natural Resource and Development. Also ¿ Police Major General (PMG)¿ ILEA Executive Director Mr. Mark Lloyd, Pukam Director and our guest Mr. Lavik Russo, Deputy Chief of Mission US Embassy. Dr. ¿ Chairman of ¿ Foundation Thailand and Dr. Tony Lynam ¿ Thailand Pukam Director. And to give warm welcome to the participants, may I invite PMG to give a speech. Please sir.

4:34 papers rustling FX

4:56 PMG: Good morning. His excellency Mr. PP Minister of the Ministry of Natural Resource and Development. His excellency Mr. Lavik Russo, deputy chief of mission us embassy ¿ Thailand ¿ lady and gentlemen ¿ the participant of ILEA Bangkok. First of all, on behalf of Mr. Mark Lloyd ¿ ILEA Pukam director and the staff of ¿ ng ¿ participant and director in this fending of the wildlife course. As you may not know an event called ¿ with the cooperation of the US government and the Thai govt. We start the first training course in march 99 we already complete 68 training courses there were 2000 ¿ 28 ng ¿ 6:30 ok this wildlife course is the first one and it has offered more than20 courses. Some course have been offered repeatedly. First time that we able to open eyes. The first course in wildlife ¿ so we would like to congratulate you to have been selected to attend these 2 course. The course will be divided into. The first week you will study in this classroom. The following week you will travel to ¿ to one of the very nice populace in Thailand. And we are very honored we are happy today to open up the course e we have the minister of the natural resource and devel. May I use this oppor to intro the minister Mr. Pp who originally from the southern province of Thai but later he cam e to complete his bach and masters degrees in forestry. While in the uni he was very active in the students' activity relating to politics and social issue after grad he had been working in the field he study b4 turning to politics. He was later appointed deputy minister of agri and cooperative. Until last year in oct Thai had restructured the govt. the ministry of nat resource and devel had been ¿ under the new policy and he was appointed to be the 1st minister of the ministry of nat resource and devel. Without further ado, I would like to invite Mr. pp to give a speech. Please welcome the minister.

9:04 applause FX paper rustling, adjusting mic, door squeaking

9:20 PP: yes, Mr. lavik russo, deputy chief of mission united states embassy ¿ Mr. mark Lloyd of the us embassy. PMG ¿ Mr.¿ of ¿ foundation of Thai ¿ Mr. ginsberg of the wildlife conservation society of NY. ¿ from around the region. Major crime has become a trade to the nations and their resources in every part of the world. Globally .. and the black market trade in wildlife and now surpassed only by the trafficking of drugs and guns in terms of profitability. in fact criminal elements involved in conventional forms of organized crime and now sometimes linked to major crime more than just endangered species are at stake. ¿ on which human population depend on agri clean water and air hard to get by poaching and logging. Protected areas are not only places for vacation. They are banks of biodiversity. Which contribute to food prod, human health and the country's economy. Ultimately nature crime threatens wildlife people and the regional security. Asia, due to its rich biodiversity is targeted by criminal syndicates involved in the local regional and intl trade of endangered species and illegal timber. To date this ¿. problem has been mainly left to enviro officials to deal with. Increased involvement of police and other enforcement agencies in fighting nature crime is essential to maintain this beautiful wildlife, rich protected area, and important watershed. ¿I welcome you to Thai where you will undergo 2 weeks to intensive instruction about nature crimes and ways to suppress it. This sign ¿ and wildlife conservation society in collaboration with govts of Thai and the US. This is the first course of its kind in this region. I believe it will help bring us closer tog in securing the region's national resources which it is dependent on. Thank you for your attention. 12:54 THEN SKIP TO

13:46 WHO? (American accent): The US has worked very closely with countries in the region for a number of years to combat various forms of transnational crime, and that cooperation was the inspiration for this institute, for ILEA. We are taking a step in a new direction here in ILEA today. For many years we have been working to combat such well-known crimes as drug trafficking, trafficking in persons, various types of cyber crime, and all kinds of crimes that threaten our people and our borders. But among those crimes that are becoming more and more of a threat and a danger to our societies in the same way that drug dealers steal the future from our children, people that are involved in enviro crime, wildlife crime are also stealing the future from our children. So the fact that you are here today is very very important, it's a major change, and a major breakthrough for us, and I'd like to thank you for that. As the minister pointed out, enviro crime is one of the fastest and most profitable of the new types of transnatl crime that we're experiencing throughout the world. The global trade of protected wildlife is estimated to be in the neighborhood of 8-10 billion dollars per year and as the minister said it is often linked to other types of transnatl crime incl illegal narcotics trade in armaments and even trafficking in persons. As I said it is the commitment of the US govt to help countries in this region and other regions to deal with this new and emerging threat and I'm very very pleased that the dept of state had the opportunity to select 2 ngos working for many yrs in Thai wild aid and the WCS as the first recipients of an enviro law enforcement grant. Both orgs have worked particularly closely with the ministry of nat resources and enviro and we are absolutely delighted that the Min could take time out of his busy schedule to come and open this session. 15:52 As was mentioned, ILEA is a very successful organization, some 2200 law enforce officers from SE Asia and china have been trained here. and today protected area staff, law enforcement personnel and conservationists form around the region will now join those 2200 graduates of ILEA in forming new links and new bonds that we hope will help you carry out your work even better than you are doing now. We also believe that ILEA and the K Natl park where some of the training will take place are centers of excellence for the region and we hope that your experience here will live up to that reputation. Again thank you and thank ILEA for putting this session on.16:40 SKIP TO


23:13 LB: I am with the WCS. ¿ 25:19 LB: Dr. Alan [Rabinowitz] is one of the top wildlife conservationist biologists in the world, he is the director of WCS's science and exploration prog based in NY but he spent huge amounts of time in other parts of the world. He worked in Belize in C.A. for many yrs studying jaguars there and worked with the govt in Belize to set up the first ever preserve for jaguars in Belize. He then came to SE Asia, did a short spell of surveys for clouded leopards in Sarawak (sp?) in the early 1980s which is when he and I first met, he then came to Thai and was working in Thai for 10 yrs and did a lot of work in (H.K.K.? area 26:08)¿ and in other parts of Thai as well. He's worked in Myanmar for many yrs working very closely with the forest dept in Myanmar and has worked with them to set up 3 very large new reserves in the N of Myanmar where he's done some major exploration work and while there he discovered a new species of leaf deer which is like the ¿ (26:35) barking deer but smaller, and was the first person ever to record that. So he has also written more than 50 scientific publications, published 4 books incl one called Chasing the Dragon's Tail about when he lived in Thai so he's absolute top person in our field. 26:57 SKIP TO

28:39 AR: The world's filled with an incredible diversity of animals, species with names like bongo, owl monkeys, cotton-tot tamarins, Nubian ibexes, rainbow boas, flamingos. An incredible diversity all shapes, all colors, all sizes. This is a special black species. [laughter] Well, that started off well. Ok, rainbow boa. All adapting to their surroundings and all evolving to a seemingly endless number of niches. Species which occupy the deepest forests, species known to occupy valleys up to high snow-covered mountains, although this is a snow leopard, not in the snow. Species which occupy the aquatic systems, in estuaries in rivers, and even species occurring below the ocean floor ¿ the du-gong. Along with these animal species ¿ there exists an equally incredible diversity of human beings. Humans who have also adapted to their surroundings. And humans who have maintained an often close but uneasy balance among the species of wildlife with which they live. Now thru-out human history, many species of animals, particularly the largest and most powerful have become an intricate part of cultures and folk laws of the humans with whom they share their home. But this is not something which just existed in the past. This is something that still exists today in many forms, in many cultures throughout the world. This slide was only taken less than a month ago in Nern Myanmar. However, despite the reverence and the respect which many ppl, which many human cultures claim to have for these species, despite how they appear in writings and how ppl practice cultural norms with them, the end result throughout time has always been the same. It's been the killing and the captivity of these animals. Sometimes simply out of fear, sometimes like here out of the need to possess the power or the beauty of the animal for ourselves. 31:30 There's a familiar scene. Now Asia is a special part of the world; historically and still today it has a sig portion of the world's bio diversity; it has the world's most populated countries and the world's most fastest growing economies. Of an estimated 6 billion ppl in the world today, approximately 57% live in Asia. This has resulted in the loss of forest cover over the last century that is staggering as you can see by this slide. Causing either most of the wildlife throughout Asia to be either threatened throughout their range or in clear danger of extinction, that is being wiped off the face of the earth forever. A graph I have showing past present and predicted future rates of species lost for the Americas, not for Asia bc I don't have that slide, but for the Americas alone itself is drastic and frightening. Look at the rate of decline from the 1950s up to today and what is predicted to be the rate for mammal species alone in the Americas throughout the yr 2200. that's in the Americas. Yet in Asia the predicted rate of decline is supposed to be much much more drastic and rapid than this. Btwn 1960 and 90 alone while Asia lost 33% of all its forests, Africa and Latin Amer lost only approx 18% of their forest. So 1 of the Qs in my mind is: why is it that we cannot manage to live with anmls?

33:27 Even those that we rarely if ever x paths w/? part of it is course is obvious. Part of it is the insatiable appetite of humans for land. To appease increasing human pop pressures and devel schemes all resulting in the loss of forest and habitat. That's understandable but it's of course getting worse and w as we go on. E.g. the average # of ppl per sq km of remaining forest in L Amer is approx 46. 99 ppl per sq km of remaining forest in W and Cent Africa. 522 ppl per sq km 34:12 ng! ¿

35:20 local ppl living in these areas have such an insatiable need for wildlife, well some ppl would say that, some ppl would be blaming the local ppl. But the fact is that most of these local ppl have use wldlf 4 food and med 4 1000s of yrs and that such personal use in this way has not as a whole led to the wide spread extinctions of wldlf that we're seeing a-x Asia today. what instead has now become so insidious throughout Asia and much of the rest of the wrld is the killing and capture of wldlf, often the species that are the biggest and the rarest. 4 the commercial markets.

Slide projector progressing FX

36:18 AR: The markets come in all shapes and sizes. You have local markets, you have regional markets ¿ you have many many markets in capitol cities which appeal to all segments of the pop ¿ very well edu, very poorly edu. Very wealthy, poor. There's something 4 everybody in these markets. Selling either parts of wldlf. These are tiger penises being sold up in fang, in Nern Thai. Or the entire animals for the pet trade. ¿

37:15 Sometimes in fact it's the strangest and the most horrific items that have the most ¿ ng! ¿

39:05 The world we live in is a world of such ¿ ng ¿

39:16 rarely if ever for the betterment of mankind. Humankind. Now we know this, it's just that we don't want to face it, we know it everyday more and more bc we we have had 2 deal with such things as malaria for decades, centuries, and .encephalitis. more recent things like limes disease and AIUDS and SARS. All of those things have come about-they didn't just appear out of nowhere. The probs btwn those things and mankind has to do w/ an imbalance in the enviro. An imbalance in the eco, & all that has 2 do w/ intact or ¿ wldlf comms.

40:01 ok, let's answer so what for a while in terms of eco. We know that the world should be in eco balance, but come on so what if we lost tigers or in this case say a jag ¿ a jag is the tiger of the Amers ¿ it's the largest cat, predator in the new world. the fact is what we do know now, science has shown us, is that the largest preds such as the large cats help to keep thru their behavior/feeding habits/activity/wide-ranging patterns they are the umbrella that help keep in balance all of the smaller things under them w/in the food web, even if they don't directly interact w/ those animal species. They help keep those animal species in balance, so if there were no large preds, then the things that those large preds fed on, if they got out of hand, there would be a snowballing effect down the chain to where the imbalance would have some very definite/clear-cut/measurable effects on forest struc as we know it, which relates in the end to human health issues and human livelihood issues.

41:22 What about smaller things, predators, which we call mezzo carnivores say in this case small cats. We know that some of these smaller things they feed on rodents, they feed on a HUGE # of rodents. Think about what would happen as we do know in some places in the world where these mezzo these mid level things don't exist anymore, and the rodents just get out of hand every single yr, in places where in the past they never used to get out of hand. Those are a bit understandable. What about other things, primates, what about things like wild pigs, birds, or even civets [sp]. We thought at one time civets carried SARs so why not just kill all the civets and what about those ugly things called bats. We surely don't need many bats in this world. ¿ all of these things play incred roles: the primates, pigs, birds, they're frugavores, they eat fruits, they travel/fly over large areas, they disperse seeds. Some tree and plant species have evolved to only be dispersed by these animal species. In other words, the forest as we know it w/out the animal comm. could not would not exist w/out the animal comm., not that the forest would be gone, but the whole dominant struc what trees would be there, what plants, would not exist. Bats. Range from everything fruit-eating with 6 ft wingspan to one of the smallest mammals in the world, the kitties [sp] bat in Thai w/ several inch wingspan.

43:24 bats eat fruit, disperse seeds, bats are pollinators, some species only pollinate. Some species of plants have evolved only to be pollinated by bats. One of them is guess what. It's Thai's king of fruits, the durian [sp]. The durian can't exist w/out bats. You lost the bats that pollinate durian, you have no durian anymore. Now how bout insects, the insectivores, those are the bats I study. The insect eating bats eat literally 100s of tons of insects a night. 100s of tons, we don't see it or we think we know but we don't know .I was studying bats in grad school and a farmer who had several bat caves on his land, didn't like the bats, he thought they were ugly. So in one night he burnt out w/ kerosene 3 of his bat caves, 4 the next 3 yrs, all of his crops were raided by insect pest and were destroyed until he came back to us and said, how do I bring the bats back? And it was too late, he couldn't bring the bats back bc once they leave a roost like that they wont come back. He had destroyed something he was getting 4 free which was keeping his crops healthy.

44:47 All of these animals tog in different ways lend a balance to nature which give us an incred thing 4 free, what they give us 4 free is clean air, clean water, systems in place which we only realize until when they're gone and then when they're gone, govts try spending billions/trillions of $ to bring that clean air/water back often w/out ever getting it back to the state they were getting it 4 free. In the 1st place. And that's in the forest itself. Outside the forest by keeping wldlf comms healthy and intact, and by keeping an intact forest system we are able esply in Asia to have healthy crops outside, have a very healthy buffer btwn wild lands and the human landscape. There's a reason ¿ if you look at this map shows a regions of diversity of crop plants. ¿ Asia has one of the regions of greatest crop diversity in the entire world. why? There are many reasons, but not a small reason has to do w/ its biodiversity with its healthy plant and animal systems. You lose the wldlf even if you think you keep the forest, and you will no longer keep that kind of diversity of crop plants bc you start losing your seed disperses, you start losing your pest eaters, then disease.

46:46 things like SARS and AIDS these are not things that just one day appeared out of nowhere and started mutating and invading human cultures. These are diseases or parts of which have been around 4 centuries but which have been kept in check by nature, by healthy forests and wldlf systems. More and more as we cut down the forests and bring the wldlf comm. to the ground we're finding that we're getting new disease outbreaks. The world health org says that in this next millennium this is going to be our greatest challenge bc of how we're treating the enviro, these new viral diseases which exist in nature as we speak but which have been kept in balance by nature that's what wldlf and nature provide 4 us, that's the eco balance which is so important 4 us. ¿
47:54 how are animals good for our pocketbook? How help us directly? How can we make $ on animals? And yet allow them to survive? That's a fair enough Q; if we're going to have to put a lot of $ into saving animals, what could we get back from them economically? Let's go thru a few exs. Any country in the world that has tourism of some kind has it at least part bc of its nature, its intact natural systems, but let's look at some very blatant exs. ¿ one place in the world where I've worked is Belize, C Amer, doing one of the 1st studies a long time ago on jags. Bc of studies on jags we ended up setting up the world's 1st jag sanctuary which at that time in the early 1980s its major economic import were Belizeans sending US dollars from the US and from drugs ¿ from overseas, that's all it had. We set up the world's first jag preserve, which no other country had, which ended up starting a system of protected areas in that country to where eco tourism today in less than 20 yrs has become the #1 money maker for that country. And where this country's known for its jags. Tourists come and wander into jungle areas which have never been open to the public b4. Belizeans themselves who have never wandered in the jungle b4 now wander into the jungle. The local ppl the local Belizeans the Mayans who lived in that jungle up until this time, their only choice in life besides doing slash and burn agri and trying to scrape out a meager living from it, was to work as slave labor essentially for large foreign citrus growers.

49:58 at prices which were outrageous. Now they were able to take over for themselves w/in this booming eco tourism industry. ng ¿

50:17 it established cottage industries, the local ppl were able to go back to making crafts which they had went away from bc there was no market for it, and now they sell and make crafts and they're better off now than they ever were and they do not have to work for the big citrus growers. And they have ¿ ng ¿

51:40 jackals [sp], and wldlf spectacles which you can't see any other place in the entire world. or any country and coastal country which keeps its marine resources intact is more and more ¿ ng ¿

NOTE: all these ng's are large, completely inaudible chunks

52:55 we depend on wldlf, we know that, but what most of us know is that we depend on wldlf in a destructive way, we have to ng

54:28 not just bc it's the right and natural thing but bc it's the balance of the natural world that gives us healthy full lives as human beings. A forest w/out wldlf is simply not a forest. And if you need to walk to far and you do not see, I mean this even in cities, if you can walk too far or too long without seeing or hearing some form of wldlf, be it birds singing/insects chirping, then you are walking thru a devastated landscape that is sick and dying. Even in the biggest city. That is not what you want for yourself, that is not what you want for your children, and that is not what's going to contribute to a healthy world in the future.

Around the 1 hour mark:
Dr. Joshua Ginsberg, director of Asia prog for WCS, >100 projects in 16 countries.

1:01:13 JG: We all use the word biodiversity and very much like the word eco, biodiversity has almost stopped having a meaning. It is everything to everyone and often partic in pol circles, it is whatever you want it to mean. Really what it has become is a short-hand for the world's bio diversity.

1:01:46 JG gets cut off by AR, introducing Liz Bennett

1:04:57 LB: Since we're talking about enforcement in Asia, that assumes that there's a prob. if there's not a legal prob, we don't need to do any enforcement. ¿ what's the prob? what are the threats facing wildlife in this region? About 1000 yrs ago, the whole of tropical Asia was basically covered in forest. Orangutans if you go back far enough came from the whole of SE Asia, all the way from china right down into Sumatra and Indonesia. As we all know that's not true anymore, and partic in the last 50 yrs wildlife pops have declined very dramatically. E.g. the Caspian, javan and Bali tiger have all become extinct since 1950. in Viet, 12 species of lrg mammals have become extinct or almost extinct since 1950. this include the cupre which is so rare I couldn't even find a vaguely decent pic of it, eldsdeer, Siamese croc and batagere turtle. Very close to the brink of extinction in Viet are the ele and the tiger. They're still there, but very few. In the Malaysian state of Sarawak ¿

1:06:47 LB: the bantang [sp] or temberdow [sp] became extinct in Sarawak in the 1930s. the Sumatran rhino became extinct there after I moved there, no correlation. It became in the 1980s. also in Sarawak in that 40 yr period from 1950 to 1990, the number of nesting marine turtles coming up onto the turtle islands dropped by 95%. And the geo ranges of both the proboscis [sp] monkey and the orangutan have shrunk a lot as well in that last 50 yrs. ¿

1:07:41 LB: It's not just the big things that are declining small ones are too. This bird ¿ called the straw headed bulbul [sp] it lives by rivers, it has this lovely bubbling song, and when I first moved to SE Asia in 1978, they were everywhere, every river you went to you would tend to hear these birds, now you almost never hear them, they've almost gone. And river banks where you used to hear them singing so beautifully, now they'
re no longer there. Now IUCN, the world conserv union, publishes a red list of species which are known to be threatened or endangered. So these are species that are in real trouble. And if we look at this region, at the number of mammals, birds, and reptiles ¿

1:08:57 e.g. indon has 140 mmls that are on the red list. That are endangered, critically endangered, or at least severely threatened. Birds 113 species, reptiles 28. as you can see, a lot of species throughout this entire region are in a lot of trouble. So that leads to the Q why. Unless we know why they're in trouble, we can't do anything about it. many reasons for Asia's declining wildlife: 1 of them, as Alan showed in that very dramatic, 2 pics of forest area, is forest loss. Most species in this region live in forest, and lrg areas of forest as we all know have been lost in recent yrs a-x Asia. Looking at forest loss in the region since 1990, this is world's resources institute data, broadly in 1 5 yr period, this is the percentage of remaining forest that disappeared. Within the 5 yr period from 1990 to 1995, and as you can see a lot of forest was lost in the last 10 yrs, this is the percentage of country's land still under forest in 2000, these are not official govt figures, they're very rough, they're taken mostly by satellite maps by the world resources institute, but they give a rough idea showing how much forest is left. That's not a good indication of habitat loss in china bc a lot of china naturally would not be forested anyway in the more Nern areas ¿

1:10:56 Now the loss of forest is due to many things and a core factor behind them is growing human pops. This is the %tage by which human pops have grown within each of the countries in the region in the 50 yrs btwn 1950 and 2000. ¿ Cambodia the pop went up by 250%, china 230, indon 267, Laos 310, Malaysia 365, phil 362, Thai 307, Viet 267. so in the last 50 yrs the human pop within SE Asia has increased enormously. So one reason why wildlife is decline is just straight bc ppl are using more land-there's more of us. We're using land for farms, plantations, factories houses, cities. All of these are essential, I'm not saying we shouldn't have these at all, they're essential for developing, thriving, eco that make SE Asia the place where we all love to live, but they do leave less room for wldlf. In most countries of the region, in fact there's a lot of forest left/ about half of all the countries in the region is still covered with forest in some form. So enough forest does live as Alan said we have some beautiful wild areas left in Asia, there's plenty of forest left for most species to do very well. ¿

1:12:51 One of the big probs is hunting. Wldlf is hunted pretty much everywhere in Asia, from inside natl parks, to logging areas thru to farms villages and towns, wldlf is hunted for anything can be either eaten or sold, either legally or illegally. It's hunted for personal consumption/use by ppl who live in the forest. Hunted for sale for meat, skins, meds, and as pets. Hunting is actually the single biggest thing driving many species to the brink of extinction throughout this whole region. ¿

1:13:57 another thing that is happening in the forests of the region is commercial selective logging. Most of the remaining forests in the region in one way or another are allocated for timber production. About 73 percent of Malaysia's remaining forest are licensed for timber, about 63 % of Thai's. it's difficult to get the figures for this bc as you know this is sensitive info, but prob more than half of the region's remaining forest in some way are allocated for extraction of wood and other forest products. ¿

1:14:39 the first way in which logging can effect wldlf is just straight by cutting the trees down. That's the primary effect of logging. ¿ trees are lost both thru the direct felling, the whole aim of it is just to get the timber out. Building roads and skid trails, thru incidental damage, as you fell one tree, the yarners [sp] tend to pull down other trees. Many studies throughout Malay and indo in partic have now shown that thru selective logging, about 50% of all trees are lost mainly due to incidental damage. So what effect does this have on wldlf? The answer is it depends on what species we're talking about. Some species disappear, such as some fruit and insect-eating birds. they tend to survive in unlogged patches w/in a logging area, so they'll hang on there and recolonize after the logging has gone thru, but they themselves don't stand the logging itself. Some species go down in #s such as some of the primates, the horn bills and the bats. Some species actually increase in #s bc as you log the forest you get grass coming up, you get other brows [sp] and so some species such as russo-sambadia [sp] actually do quite well in logging areas. In general, species do not go extinct due to the primary effects of logging. This on the whole it may be reducing #s, but it's normally not wiping things out. But logging has other effects and that's the 2dary effects. Encroachments, ppl moving in along the roads and clearing along the side of the roads. Increasing the risks of fire partic in indo and Malay and also hunting. When logging goes in, you don't just get the felling, you get all these other effects. And hunting increases very greatly in logging areas bc logging roads allow outside hunters to come in, so ppl from towns use the logging roads to go into the forests to hunt, which they couldn't do b4. logging roads allow wldlf to be taken from eh forests to markets often quite some distance away. Logging workers themselves hunt. We did a study in one logging camp in Sarawak where w/in 1 yr, one small transit camp, of about 150 ppl hunted more than 1000 animals, or 29 tons of wldlf a year from one small transit camp. And local ppl start hunting more for sale in the area so instead of hunting for their own subsistence, they'll hunt and sell as well. This happens throughout the region. And generally ¿

1:18:02 and as you can see it's what's called a boom and bust trade. When hunting is just for subsistence, hunting levels tend to be very low. Trad ppls hunting just for their own use. Then you get a logging road or some other form of access, ppl starting to hunt for sale. Initially logging rates go up very quickly bc ppl are hunting for sale as well there's lots of the resource there, there's lots of the money there, then the resource starts to run out and that's when once hunting is very commercialized, hunting rates go way down again bc there's nothing left. The result of this hunting associated with logging is a major decrease in wldlf in areas with logging roads. This is just the roads and the access. ¿

1:18:54 [data from Sarawak-sp] this is the distance from the logging rd along here, this is the amount of lrg animals here. 6.5 km from the rd, lots of animals. On the rd or next to the rd, no animals. This was all unlogged forest, the only difference was the road access and the hunting that came with it. logging involves lrg #s of ppl going into the forest.

1:19:20 But on a smaller scale is ppl who go into the forest for other reasons. E.g. ppl go into fish, to collect rattan, to collect firewood, garu [sp] or allowood [sp] and to collect fruit. Now while they're there, these ppl often hunt, that may not be why they go into the forest in the first place but while they're there, they hunt. And if they're in the forest for long periods, the impact can be quite sig. It seems that in Thai at least allowood [sp] collectors have caused declines in some of the wldlf in some protected areas of Thai, and not just here, in the rest of the region as well. All of this was increased loss of animals at the source, in the forest.

1:20:15 when we're looking at how to conserve wldlf we also have to look at changes in demand. Demand for wldlf across this region is extremely lrg. If we're looking at enforcement, you can tackle it @ two levels, you can tackle it at the source, in the forest, you can tackle it where the demand is, in the markets and places where ppl are trying to buy it, and also on the trade routes that run btwn the 2. so those are the places where you need to be tackling it. ¿

1:21:10 now all of this sounds as though the pic is hopeless, what I hope you're not going to get by the end of the day, is a feeling that it's so hopeless, we might as well all give up and go home. That's not what we're trying to do. there's some hope and positive solutions as well, and what we're doing with this course, it's about solutions, what we're going to do about it. so in terms of protecting animals at the source, just a couple of examples, so that to give you a pos spin b4 lunch. Nagaraholi [sp] natl park in India is totally surrounded by ppl. 1000s of ppl live just outside the boundary, and yet it has a lot of wldlf in it, it's a fantastic place to go to view wldlf, if you ever get a chance to go it's in SW India, and it's a fantastic place to go to view see eles, wild saladang [sp] or gawa [sp], wild monkeys of lots of different species; I've not seen them there, but I know a lot of ppl who go there see tigers, you can see dole [sp] which I have seen there. It's a great place to see wldlf. And yet it has literally millions of ppl living right outside the boundary. The reason they've done this ¿ is bc they've had a very strict prog of edu and enforcement, protecting animals at the source. ¿. But it can work. India is always in my mind a classic ex. it's a wonderful ex of how even w/in very heavily pop.ed areas, wldlf can still do very well, including big animals, big animals which have a price tag on their heads. That's looking at the source end.

1:23:13 One solution controlling the demand side, ppl trying to reduce demand. In Sarawak and Malaysia, a recent new law bans all comm. wldlf trade. This came into effect in 98. again it's been implemented with these twin tools, edu and enforcement. This course is mainly about the enforcement side, but we also will have something about edu bc they always as you know they go hand in hand. Carrot and stick, you have to have both. This one has been implemented with major edu progs in towns and in rural areas. And also w/ major enforcement progs, mainly in the town areas, it's a market-based ban. And wldlf pops, it's really soon yet to have really good data on this but from what we hear from rural hunters, it sounds that wldlf pops in at least some areas are already starting to recover. There are many other positive examples; it shows that if you have a properly planned prog of research, policy, legal change if necessary, edu, enforcement, then Asia's wldlf can be saved.

1:26:09 Todd [student with question]: Since you have such an experience in Sarawak, the last example where the law in Sarawak banned all wldlf trade, a Q for everybody, the definition and scope of "all trade," would that include bartering at the local village level, w/in your level or was that a commercial trade for money in a market, or what is the scope of banning all trade in Sarawak and how that affected the source there?

1:26:43 LB: the way it's defined under the law is all commercial trade and it defines wldlf in that term as all mammals, birds, amphibians, and reptiles, so it doesn't do a thing for you can still sell fish of course you couldn't possibly ban that. And it doesn't affect insects, so it's mammals, birds, amphibians, reptiles, and it's all commercial trade of animals from the wild, and the way that's defined legally bc you can't define what's wild under the law, it's almost impossible to define, is a gecko in your house wild? Is a munia [sp] in your garden wild? It's almost impossible to define, so the law put it on its head and said it's illegal to trade commercially in any of those species which have not been bred in a licensed farm. And there's very strict rules for licensed wildlf farms. Now the way it's being enforced very largely in the markets in towns and that's what it was aiming to do, barter trade in rural areas, in fact even commercial trade w/in rural areas, btwn long houses in the interior is broadly not covered by it, but it would include ppl selling wild meat to logging comps for ex. there's another piece of reg that went with it that said logging comps have got very strict regs about hunting. And using wldlf as well. But something that traditionally would have been a barter trade in the interior, even if that now has money attached to it is more or less at least it's turned a blind eye to bc that wasn't the intention of the law to stop that.

1:29:32 CS: My presentation is looking at intl wldlf trade in SE Asia, as Dr. LB just pointed out, traffic doesn't just look at the intl trade, we also look at domestic trade, trade w/in natl parks, towns cities provinces countries on all levels, but I'm going to focus mostly on the intl trade and also a little on the routes/methods used in smuggling. ¿

1:30:24 The intl trade supplies numerous demands, when I say domestically I mean w/ in SE Asia, and intlly . wildlf's traded both legally and illegally ¿ a lrg percentage of the wldlf trade in SE Asia is illegal. It's traded for a number of reasons, food consumption, med, and magic in certain countries, drawing the line btwn trad med and magic is a little bit of a trick so we won't. the pet trade, trophy, decorative, which is I mean hox-bill [sp] turtle shells, ivory, and zoos and collections. Zoos play a very lrg role in the intl wildlf trade, a growing role in SE Asia and a very large role in the illegal trade and they're often overlooked bc ppl tend to assume bc it's a zoo, it must be alright. Collections some countries ¿ have a very lrg fashion, status symbol attached to having a private collection.

1:31:42 some of the wldlf trade is subsistence trade, low income fams, hunting but a lot of the trade is for wealthy buyers, wealthy dealers involved, a lot of money is made and it's not benefiting local comm.s, it's not benefiting tribal ppl, it's just a high level, commercial indust. For ex fresh water turtles, that sup-plies a luxury food trade in china, it's more expensive in the market of china than chicken is. Trad med, we have zero parts being rendered there. That's an example of a domestic non-commercial, non-internationally commercial trade.

1:32:25 Origins and destinations: some species are bred captively 4 commercial purposes, I cannot give you any exs in SE Asia where captive breeding is actually benefiting the wild pops. I can give you loads of examples where the setting up and running of commercial breeding operations are hurting the wild pops, are being used as a laundering operation, for some species such as the erwana [sp] fish they do supply a certain amount of the demand, same as the crocs, but it's not doing any good for the wild, they're still coming out of the wild. There isn't a lot of species that are kept commercially captively bred in SE Asia; crocs, arwana [sp] fish, some snake species, and a few bird species, but the majority of the wildlife trade in our region is wild source.

1:33:18 Obviously SE Asia has an extremely rich biodiversity, a lot of species found in this region are endemic to this region. You have a country like indo, where there's a multiple of species that are island endemic, mountain endemic. These are popular in the intl trade. They're popular as a status symbol in pet trade, zoos want these rare animals, ppl think of the pet trade and they think of parrots, songbirds, this and that the trade here is absolutely everything from birds to elephants. I know dealers that export centipedes and millipedes, I know dealers that smuggle out live elephants, tigers, live tigers, clouded leopards, you name it, it's traded. With the trophy trade, certain countries it's higher than others. Myanmar has a very high level of export of trophies ¿ horns, antlers, skins. We also look at the marine turtle shell as a decorative trade even though the meat is eaten, it's 2dary,m byprod, and orchids which are decorative to a large extent. Meat and trad meds, traded domestically largely although some especially snakes penguins and fresh water turtles cater largely to E Asian countries, esply Sern china, shipments measuring in the tons. ¿

1:34:56 others species sourced out of our region are agarwood [sp] earlier it was mentioned as allowood or eglewood [sp], orchids or other valuable NTFPs, a lot of the sourcing of SE Asia, whether the country has a is a quota or not is often completely uncontrolled and often in enormous volumes. Unbelievable volumes. SE Asia itself is not only a source country ¿ but it's also a growing market. We're having an increased of Madagascar turtles for example coming into Singapore, Bangkok, then the Kuala Lumpur starting, then last couple of yrs I've been seeing them show up in Jakarta markets, these turtles, plowshare [sp] tortoises for ex sell for about 5000 US a piece. This is due to an increased buying power in the region, increased access to these rare species, and just general popularity of them, it's a fashion. For a lot of these rare pets. Wildlf dishes, expencive, there's restaurants in a lot of countries that sell tiger meats, leopard bear, and also owning private zoos and animal collections is the reason why more and more exotic wildlife to the region is coming in. we're having indo is a source of wldlf to a lot of other countries. We're having kassowars[sp] for sale in Bangkok. Palm cockatoos coming into Bangkok, African and S American species for sale in a # of bird markets, this is a growing trend. A few exs: the field guides, you need to survey the Singapore markets for south Americans and Africans countries these are two kinds ¿ star tortoise in Malay, none of them native to this region.

1:37:07 the role of individual countries in SE Asia, now I've just picked a few highlights of each country that's in the region, I'm not saying these are the only probs by any means, and I'm not saying that the countries are full of probs. I just picked a few exs of some highlights, if you want. Indo is a source of many animals in the intl pet and zoo trade that are highly prized bc of them being endemic to the region. Indo has 21 designated ports, and this is for SIETY's [sp] export only, there's only 21 ports and airports that have been designated to allow any siety's import/export. However, depending on your definition of an island, indo has 17000 islands. There's ways of getting in and out of everyone of these, so there's a lot of illegal import and export from nonregistered ports. There's a huge domestic demand, I would say indo probly has the highest domestic demand for cage birds anywhere in the world, every village town city has bird shops markets they're very pop and very inexpensive pet, but as native stalks are being wiped out which they are more and more at a very alarming rate there's more and more exotic species or species that were once native to indo that are now gone coming into the markets. The straw headed bulbul used to be very common in Sumatra now all the straw headed bulbul you find coming into the markets are all from peninsular Malay. Tiger prods coming out of Sumatra are being smuggled into Malay and Singapore. There was the ¿ had seizure of 5 tiger skeletons earlier this year. Traffic's recently carried out a 2 yr study of the Sumatran tiger trade in Sumatra, island-wide in Sumatra. It was absolutely astonishing our findings, it's a very lrg trade.

1:39:11 The novelty pet trade of things that didn't used to be very popular in the trade this is a snake neck turtle, you can find that pretty much anywhere in certain markets here in Thai, Kuala Lumpur Singapore and throughout indo. ¿ the intl airport in Malay and other intl airports are absolutely key in the wldlf trade. The airport KLIA is a major point for transiting all fresh water turtles from indo to the markets in china, Malay's a source of pangolins [sp], snakes and turtles in large volumes although some are from indo but are laundered thru Malay. There's a growing number of zoos and collections in Malay, there's over 40 registered zoos in Malay alone. A lot of these acquire their animals from somewhere. Restaurants selling wild meats. ¿ from ¿ could give a lot of info to anyone. There's been a number of raids this yr on restaurants where leopard, bear, and siraw [sp] and have been seized. This caters to a growing demand in Malay but also to a lot of visiting Singaporeans, it's not just going in and out form indo, the Thai Malay border there's a lot of wldlf there, there's tiger skins, tiger skull, clouded leopard parts, on the Thai side of the border that caters to a Malay demand. Some common wldlf trade in Malay are meds containing or may contain tiger bone. This is peninsular Malay is unique among the 3 portions of Malay, saban Sarawak [sp] being the other 2 in not having lege to cover prods that claim to contain protective wildlife prods, and this is our kor ambonence [sp] which is traded very heavily out of Malay.

1:41:21 now we'll pick on Thai. This is actually taken in market on Thai Malay border. This is the most expensive part of the tiger skin incidentally bc the design of the stripes btwn the ears is similar to the Chinese character for royalty. Or king. Which makes that a hot item. There's a lrg trade of nonnative bird species, you'll see on Sunday when you go to the AM market, there'll be a lot of S Amer and African species and there'll be a lot of Indo species, tiger skins and trophies come in from neighboring countries. You can go to meisai [sp] Tajilak on the Myanmar border, you can go to the markets along the Cambodia border, there's tiger and leopard prods there as well as live birds depending on the season including green pea fowl and cyrus [sp] cranes. Trad meds derived from species sourced in neighboring countries we were involved in a seizure of rhino horn and rhino skin a few yrs ago. That was said to have come from Burma. Indo species are common in the markets here and there was a seizure a few yrs ago of palm cockatoos in the port off of a boat, there was over 60 cockatoos on this boat. The ivory sale, there is a very high trade of ivory here in Thai ¿

1:42:58 in Singapore is the re-export of wild animals, all species native to Singapore are protected, the only species that are allowed to be sold or captured and killed in Singapore are 5 non-native species and one native species which is the purple back starling. Everything else is protected. So the wldlf trade there is all import and reexport. There's a lrg demand for cage birds and reptiles for the pet industry. Including very expensive animals. There was one bird dealer arrested 2 yrs ago with leers macaws that were valued at $100,000 US for the pair. Very high end species for sale there. Imports of fresh water turtles and tortoises from indo, there's a lrg volume going through Singapore, 10% of the soft shells in these shipments are consumed locally in Singapore. The rest go on to Sern china, it's a major hub for the reptile skins. There's been a lot of probs with dealers taking advantage of lrg quantity shipments, you send 5000 skins, on your permits you add another 1000, no one's going to count them. These go thru Singapore. There's a lot of skin trade thru S amer even going thru Singapore, from indo and Malay, these are mostly monitor lizards.

1:44:23 the veranis, the python species, and the crocs. In the past there was pangolins [sp]. High end prods such as shatush [sp]. Shatush is from the Tibetan antelope, it's wool. This is a high end prod you can buy this this has been seized recently in Singapore in the last couple of yrs there were a few seized. Most lrg centers like Bangkok and KL do have some shatush and this is catering to a very wealthy demand. ¿

1:45:05 lao has some ivory trade mostly in vienchen, for tourists many of which are from china, there's a lot of live animals smuggled out of lao into Viet for the meat trade, for consumption, for a growing restaurant trade in Viet. And it's also a conduit for lrg quantity trade pangolins and fresh water turtles and tortoises go to Viet and on to china, many of these are from peninsular Malay. So lao plays a role. There's a lrg demand for the meat, but it's also a serious point for transit.

1:45:46 Cambodia again this is a trade route country again to a certain extent a lot goes thru to Viet from cambod from other countries, there's a trophy market trade along the borders, where tiger skins, leopard skins are sold, high end things, trad meds such as the slowlaures [sp]. There's a very high volume trade there, it's never really been looked at, we don't know what the volume would be. It's this region is screaming out for masters and PhD students looking at these issues.

1:46:26 viet's turn. Trad med is an issue throughout SE Asia, but Viet also exports prods for trad meds in Sern china, the meat/restaurant trade in Viet is growing, virtually all restaurants have some sort of wild meat for sale whether it's soft shelled turtles or snakes or pengalin. And fresh water turtles and tortoises and the snakes and pangolins are also heavily harvested in Viet and taken to china but Viet plays a role in virtually all the pangolin trade from this side of SE Asia goes up thru Viet in to china. I was at one point in Viet where I met a dealer who was bringing in pangolins from a Malay dealer, bringing in 100 animals a day. My colleague did a marine turtle survey throughout Viet last yr. It was quite shocking, we found marine turtle parts being sent to china and S Korea in 40 ft long shipping containers full. We did an inventory of 200 and something shops, counting all the pieces and we counted over 28,000 pieces of hox-bill turtle parts ¿ only as of last April have all of the marine turtle parts been protected in Viet. But getting them out of the market is ¿ protecting them is one thing, getting them out of the trade is another.

1:48:12 Myanmar is a major source country for species both going into Thai and coming into china. This is for trad med and food and also for trophies. ¿ recently we found Tibetan antelope heads coming out as trophies, I'm assuming this is a byprod to the wool trade. But 5 yrs ago I'd never seen these there now I find them quite commonly. Tiger skins are brought in I was having lunch in the home of some wldlf dealers in Myanmar a few yrs ago and inside the house they had a number of cardboard boxes of toilets [monophone] pile dup against the wall and I go out asking what was with the toilets, there were 10-15 boxes of toilets. She opened up all the boxes of toilets and inside every one was a tiger, except a couple of leopards, all from deli and they'd all come in thru Rangoon and on thru Tajilak to be sold from there and according to her, most would be sold to Taiwanese buyers. This is another ex of how important the airports are in the regions.

1:49:41 the Philippines ¿ there's a bird trade in the phil, it's very difficult to deal with, Sern phil trades cockatoos with indo, Eern indo, cockatoos go to the phil in direct trade for guns, there's not even cash involved in a lot of the trade, these are done on fishing boats, it's incredibly difficult to deal with. The phil cockatoo is something that's going to vanish really soon if there's not anything done for the bird trade. Reef fish are a big commodity that come out of the phil as are marine turtle eggs, there was recently a seizure of just over 4000 marine turtle eggs taken from 2 phil boats in saba [sp]

1:50:29 wldlf travels around SE Asia pretty easily. you can send 25 tons a week on an airplane, of fresh water turtles, you can smuggle live eles, it's fairly simply done, doesn't take a lot of skill to figure out what's happening. Virtually all roads crossing intl borders are used in some form for the intl wldlf trade. All airports are used, boat ports, airports are a key target. The turtles being exported out of Sumatra can only go by plane bc if they went by boat, the mortality rate would be too high. And they would lose $, so this is why airports are such a key target for enforcement efforts. Wldlf cargo often goes thru transit and when it's in transit, it's either ignored or not allowed to be touched depending on the law of the country, a lot of transit cargo cannot be touched by anyone but customs, and in some cases customs can't even go into it. wldlf dealers know this, they know the lege as much as any of us here. They keep up with it, they attend SIETY's [sp] conferences, they go to training, they learn they know and they keep up with what's happening, so they use the airports, they use the ports. And in some cases collaboration btwn authorities and the illegal wldlf dealers allows trade to exist. Not pointing any fingers, but I'm not saying it doesn't happen in any countries as well.

1:52:10 some major trade routes, again there's absolutely thousands of trade routes here, I'm just going to pick on a few. Air cargo from medan [sp] which is in N Sumatra to KLIA and on to china this is key, 25 tons of turtles a week in the yr 2000. wldlf prods taken by land from lao, cambod, and Viet on to china simple trade routes, marine turtle eggs from the phil to saba and then by air from saba to KL for sale in restaurants. Wldlf trade from India to Burma by land and air up in magaland [sp] in India's side we have reports of a lot of trade coming in from there, and into Thai and china. Taiwan and Japan are big buyer of Burmese trophies. Wild birds from indo are sold to Singapore, Malay and Thai. Often under the false pretences of being captive bred. They don't only go there, indo birds are for sale world wide often being called captive bred specimens. Again this is just an ex, this is not limited to songbirds. ¿

1:53:41 methods of transport-air sea and land. If you can pack an animal into it, it's used to move wild life. Motorbikes rowboats, freightliners, planes, lrg volume trade to china from distant countries is done by air again as I mentioned this is to cut down on mortality. Large volume cargos are often carried by trucks, lorry loads cross the Malay Thai border, of pangolins and fresh water turtles and snakes. A lot of the species are just carried on the person and these are hard to detect, the x-ray machines pick up a few airport security once in a while gets a tip off and will catch a few but it happens daily, a guy recently came from Singapore into KL with 900 star tortoises in a carry on bag, 2 lrg bags with very small tortoises packed into it. ¿ the ones that are caught are often caught bc they are careless there was a person caught in Australia recently with cockatoo eggs sewn into his underwear, one of them hatched while going thru customs, it made noise he got caught. But mostly they don't get caught. Cigarette packages carrying small snakes, ¿ fish are stuffed into their baby's bottles, these sort of things. They don't get caught.

1:55:09 Smuggling techniques: some country's enforcement isn't very strict so you don't need to be a genius to smuggle out your wildlife, but in some countries where enforcement is stricter a lot of different techniques used. Hidden compartments in a shipping container, some countries the whole shipping container is full, others it's full of clothing or fruit or something and inside is a box containing tiger bone, this sort of thing. Concealing items on your person, this is where you sew your cockatoo eggs into your underwear. Concealing items in luggage, a lot of luggage is suitcases with compartments sewn in , other times the whole suitcase is full. Shatush [sp] is often smuggled in luggage, or often ppl just wear it on the plane. Mixing with look alike species, this gets trickier. This is where you have a species of cockatoos that are SCIETY's 2 listed species and in that cage there are some scietys 1 listed species mixed in. not everyone can tell these apart ¿it's difficult and the dealers know this and love it and they take advantage of that. Double packaging or double layering. This is common for arwana [sp] fish you have a bag, with arwana fish in it, you take a bag with goldfish, put it in the arwana fish bag tie it up put it in a box, if anyone opens up they're going to open it from the top and they're going to see a lot of goldfish. It's very common way to move arwana fish esply into the US where enforcement is a lot tougher at the airports so they use these methods.

1:56:45 Hidden among other cargo there was recently a seizure, acting on a tip off, in Jakarta a truck load of shrimp, it stinks shrimp and fish are a good way to cover your wldlf if the port uses dogs they're not going to detect it. it stinks, nobody's going to want to go mucking around to see if there's anything in there. But they had 300 kg of pangolin meat hidden under a pile of shrimp.

1:57:09 False declaration very common and a very big prob. where you have a shipment of python skins where it says 4000 skins and there's actually 11,000 in the shipment or the declaration is changed. If you look at the export permits in medan [sp] of the 13 species of turtles that are exported out, the permit often only says 1 species. "heohsumese grandes" [sp] which doesn't even exist in Sumatra. We also have probs with false declaration where 1 place will issue a permit for snake skins to another country, that country issues a re-export permit back to the country where the snakes actually are and then they can export them and the reason they do this is that country is already exceeded its quota so they need to re-export rather than export. It's complicated but it works great.

1:58:04 inaccurate documents: the dates/species are wrong, or else the species on the document have already been exported a few times and the permit's being reused. And smuggling illegal routes. ¿

1:59:12 how illegal trade can happen, how do ppl find out what's for sale? Circulation of price lists, mail lists on internet of what they have for sale and the prices, zoos sell wldlf this way, private collectors and dealers, just go into any website, go into reptiles and add yourself to a mailing list and suddenly you'll have ppl contacting you from all over the world trying to sell you things. I've had ppl try to sell me 5 black rhinos in medan [sp].

1:59:54 Exhibitions: bird exhibitions, arwana fish clubs have an exhibition, a lot of legal interactions go on here, but this is where the illegal dealers go to make new contacts. recently there was a dealer from Singapore who took part in a reptile exhibition in KL. He had all kinds of stuff from Madagascar, advertised to everybody, then went on a holidays to Florida where he was arrested.

2:00:21 internet and email, this links up with the price list, you get ppl contacting you all the time with all kinds of amazing things for sale. Mail outs, sometimes you get a brochure in your mail. If you're on the mailing list telling you that they've got some probasses [sp] monkeys for sale. Newspapers. There's a person in medan in syantar which is near medan in Sumatra who has his own private zoo, he put an ad in the paper that said "wanted dead or alive: tigers, clouded leopards, siero [sp], and other rare protected animals." [laugh] very sneaky.

2:00:57 Notice boards, some places you see on a notice board: wldlf for sale. Retail outlets, this is your pet stores, your bird markets, restaurants. Specialist groups and clubs: a lot are good, but there's some out there that aren't so good. Specialist mags, you can pick up your reptile hobbyist mag. And chances are there'll be an ad somewhere in that mag where someone has some comodo [sp] dragons or something for sale. Telephone and fax ¿ once you get on those lists, it doesn't take long b4 you have ppl calling you up for stuff. Canvassing. In indo there's a funny ex. I was sitting in a restaurant and this guy came up with a backpack full of false garriel [sp] hatchlings ¿ it's a small fish eating croc, this guy was just going person to person in this restaurant just like someone selling pens and alarm clocks. This guy was selling false gerriels.

2:01:56 Trade fairs ¿ there's an arwana fish breeding association in SE Asia. They meet and have fairs sometimes. There's bird groups that do the same thing; they get together and trade happens. Wholesale outlets. a lot of restaurants are supplied by wholesale dealers; these ppl have businesses that will supply meat to you of any species in the ton. And word of mouth-this is very common. If I got a clouded leopard for sale, I'll mention it to somebody, they'll mention it to somebody, and eventually we'll find somebody that wants to buy my clouded leopard. Internet is a growing prob. there's somebody on the internet right now, I won't say from which country, who has 2 whole tigers for sale. He had more, but if you monitor the internet for long enough, you'll see that business is quite brisk. Ebay had some orangutan skulls for sale not too long ago and the wldlf dealers esply the high scale/value dealers use the internet; it's very hard to track. Case studies I'll go thru quickly. ¿. Agarwood [sp] ¿ it's a wood used sometimes in med/perfumes/incense. The only one listed on sietys is acolaria malocansas [sp] it's appendiz2 and it's the most valuable species. SE Asia's a big source and I'll show you how this works; these are the main source countries: indo, Malay, Thai , cambo, Laos, Viet, and papa new guinea. The biggest buyers: Japan, Taiwan, India, Korea, hk and the mid east. It all goes thru Singapore as an import/re-export market. Remember this isn't all illegal. A lot of this is legal bc it's scietys 2 species, so it can be done. ¿ Saudi Arabia is the biggest buyer, but other regions Japan and HK are growing quickly. ¿ these are the source countries for Singapore's import and re-export. This is from the scietys annual reports: the source in the past has been indo as the largest one ¿ indo as a source has gone down, and as they've gone down, Malay has become the largest source in the world for the agarwood.

END 2:05:10

Close Title