Joseph DiLuzio, Meghan Gandy
Archaeology and history of ancient Greece
Street and bar ambi
NPR/NGS Radio Expeditions
7 Jun 2004
- Athens; Ancient Agora of Athens
- 37.975 23.7225
- :56 - 34:52
- 37.978 23.712
- 34:52 - 1:42:04
Decoded MS Stereo; Spaced Omnis, DPA 4060
Show: Greece - Olympics
Log of DAT #: 8
Engineer: Josh Rogosin
Date: June 14, 2004
JD = Joseph DiLuzio
MG = Meghan Gandy
CJ = Chris Joyce
JG = Jessica Goldstein
0:58 ok this is MS stereo
chatter while walking to interview in the shade. Gravel crumbling. The crew stops to look at the view.
4:25 ? shares the story of the myth. Well either Aries was put on trial for accidentally killing one of the sons of Sidean, So that¿s one theory on why It is called the Area of Osidean (sp). That was a myth that was current until around the 5th century when, the Atheanens started to develop a new Amazon myth, in which the Amazon started to invade Athens and supposedly encamped on the AO while they siege the Acroplous and they were supposedly the daughters of Aries and so they sacrificed to their father on the hill and so that¿s why it was called the AO.
5:57 CJ lets start with who you are and what you do.
5:58 My name is Joe Dulisio (sp) I¿m a second year graduate student in classical studies and ancient history from Boston Univ. This is my second participating in the excavations at Athenea Ira (sp). I did my undergraduate in history and in the course of studying history I became very interested in the ancient world. I decided to a masters in archaeology in Tuscan university and after that I decided that I need to become better acquainted with the languages to make myself a better historian and so I decided to do a PhD in classical studies.
7:05 CJ what is the name of where we are and why is it important to the classical period of Greek history.
7:11 JD what we¿re sitting right now on the pinics (sp) and right now we sitting right over the speakers platform, which is where an order would assembled Atheaneans. And right where we¿re standing here is basically the heart of the democracy. It¿s I suppose analogies to our house of representatives, except for the fact of people actually electing representatives to actually come here, all of the Atheneans male citizens who own land would come here to speak or listen to the speakers, and then vote on proposals and decide all matters of state just like our congress and president do in the US.
8:05 CJ the assembled Atheaneans were called the Acleezia (sp)? JD Yes, the Acleesia. CJ and the person who would be taking the platform behind us, could that be anybody purposing a law? JD Theoretically it could be anyone. But usually it would be people with very good orders, people who would be holding office, who had been elected as a general. People with speaking skills, probably not the average Joe, would have the nerve to get up on the platform and ascend his fellow citizens because, quite frankly they could be pretty brutal. It took someone who was very confident of himself and had some rhetorical training to get up and address his fellow citizens.
9:35 Ambi dogs barking in the background, birds chirping.
9:54 CJ you particularly like this place. You are working in the Arberaw (sp) but the Penix (sp) is a special place for you?
9:59 JD yeah, I prefer this actually to the Acropolis, and just because first of all it¿s so peaceful. I mean you can hear all the birds, so it¿s very serene and you can also have a very pretty view of the Acropolis and the Argura and all of that so. Also the Argura, I should say, I feel like I see the things I read about in literature, but here is where they all come together. This is where the Atheaneans decided how the state itself would proceed, how it would rise and ultimately how it would fall.
10:51 CJ you¿ve paid a lot of attention of went when on here, in Athens, and particularly here at the Penix, who were some of the orders in particular that you remember?
11:01 JD well I would say that the best source for the orders here in my opinion, at least of what I¿ve studied so far is, would have to be the 5th century historian Thusidedees (sp). And in the course of his history he gives a series of speeches or he purports to rapport. The most memorable speeches is before Atheans decided to go and invade Sicily in the 420¿s, actually no it would be in the 14¿s, and there Thusidees juxtaposes two speeches, one by a man named Nikias (sp) and one by a man named Allsabyedees (sp) and N was an older, more conservative, more cautious person who was very reluctant to send this expedition half way across the Mediterranean to conquer Sicily and A was this kind of young, upstart, great speaker, very good looking, and he swayed the people. He said this is how empires are made we need to go over there and we need to do this, and persuaded the people and away they went, and ultimately it led to disaster, Athens was not the same after that, and you know, it happened right here.
12:38 CJ it happened here in and was recorded by T?
12:40 JD T the historian, CJ and was he present when he made the speech? JD at that point he would not have been, at that point he was a general himself, T, and he would certainly had been here. But in the 420¿s he was actually exiled, because he lost a battle. The Athenians didn¿t like people to be losers in the field. And so very often they would ostracize and exile leaders and ultimately, by the end of the war they didn¿t have any competent generals at all and that kind of hasten their demise. CJ Sudam Hussein I think did that. JD yeah, very similar, Stallon (sp) they tend to do that. And here maybe perhaps the frightening thing is that it was a democracy that was doing it.
13:35 CJ so T recorded these two monumental speeches that led to this war, so can you read this to us? JD well actually there¿s another one that I prefer to read, I picked out. This guy Paracules (sp) is the guy we most often associate with Athenian democracy. And the outset of the war was 431; this was the outset of the Palapenician (sp) war. P was the leader in Athens and basically had total power, in the sense he was probably Athens strongest leader and he argued that Athens should draw it¿s walls and let the Spartans ravish the countryside around them, but as long as we stay in our walls and maintain our connection to the sea we can get all our supplies and everything we need from the sea, well inevitably what happened was there was a big plague, and so disease struck and many of the land owners from around Attica who had to come to Athens and were not happy about watching their farms become destroyed. And so a couple years later they became very angry, I think the plague lasted a couple of years and the Athenians became very angry with P and were questioning this policy that were going to have them pinned in the walls and you know getting sick in this plague. And so you know, T records a speech and I was going to read maybe a few paragraphs. I think it¿s very instructive as to what kind of person this man is and¿CJ and this is a speech by P right here at the Penix? JD right here at the Penix and to the Athenian assembly, who is very angry at him at it¿s recorded by T.
JD Reads speech -
16:38 Your anger at me has come with my full expectations, since I am aware of the reasons and I have therefore called an assembly to give you some reminders and condemn whatever maybe misguided in either your anger against me or your surrender to your misfortunes. I believe that a city that is overall in the right course, benefits individuals more than one that is prospering as far as each citizen is concerned, but failing collectively. For if a man is well off in his own situation, but his country is destroyed, he is ruined along with it none the less, but if he fairs badly, and one that is fairing well, he is much more likely to come through safely. Since a city then is able to bare the misfortunes of individuals, but each member is incapable of bearing those of the city, how should you not all come to its defense instead of acting as you are now? In consternation at the inflictions of your household, you are neglecting the salvation of the community and you hold me to blame for advising you to go to war, and yourselves for joing in the decision, and yet I, the object of you anger consider myself a man inferior to no one in judging what is necessary and explaining it. Further more a lover to my country and above money, for one who has ideas and does not instruct clearly is on the same level as if he had not thought of them. The man able to do both, but ill disposed toward his city cannot make any declaration with a comparable loyalty. And if he has that as well, but he is conquered by money, for this alone can be bought in entirety. As so in thinking that I, rather than others, was endowed with these qualities, however modestly, you were persuaded to go to war, I could not now be reasonably be charged now with misconduct, for going to war is great folly for those whose general good fortune gave them a choice. But when it was either become the subjects of others, by yielding or to prevail by taking risks, the one who shuns danger deserves condemnation more than the one confronting it. I am the same, my position unchanged, it is you who have shifted, because it developed that you were persuaded when unharmed and regretted it when injured. And in your weakened state of mind, my policy appears wrong, because there is grief felt by each of you right now. But realization of the benefits is still a long way off for one and all. And since a great reversal has befallen you and with little warning your attitude is too feeble, to preserve in what you resolved, for that which is sudden and unexpected, and which comes with least accountability, is what enslaves the spirit. This has happened to you, especially in addition to other reasons, on account of the plague. Never the less, since you inhabit a great city and were brought up with a way of life to match it, you must be willing to hold out even in the greatest misfortunes, and not wipe out your fame. For men think it equally appropriate to blame whoever, through slackness, fall short of a reputation already established, and to hate anyone, who through arrogance grabs for one that is not deserved. But seize from private sorrow and take up the salvation of the community.
21:31 CJ what is it about that particular speech, besides the fact that P made it, that you particularly like?
21:38 JD there is nothing new under the sun first of all. People in a democracy have a tendency to sway with the wind. And they want one thing, and then when it goes wrong, they¿re mad at the people who persuaded them to do it. At the same time what is striking about this passage, is that he actually got up and said to the people, I mean he exhibited what we would call today, real leadership. I mean in the US we call all these people real leaders, but here P was exhibiting to me real leadership. He was telling them what they didn¿t want to hear. That it was a tough slog and that they¿d have to get through it, and not be selfish about it. But you know, there are several things that make this different than certain circumstances that we¿d be facing in our own country. One of that is what he says about war, it is folly for men who have another choice to go to war, so he¿s not giving a blank assertion, you know follow me¿you know you¿re too weak and too stupid to follow me. He doesn¿t say that, well he does say that, but it¿s not with out good reason. The circumstances were very different. This was a war that at least rhetorically, in his speeches; he¿s saying that they did not have a choice of, whether that¿s true or not, is another matter. In my opinion the Athenians did have a choice as to whether they needed to go to war with Sparta at this point.
23:27 CJ this appeals to you as a student of classics, as a student of literature, and history, but why do you feel it necessary to do archaeology as well as just study. I mean you can get this right out of the book. Why is it necessary for you to go and dig in the dirt?
23:52 JD I think it establishes this intimacy, this kind of first person relationship with the material. And the other thing about archaeology is it¿s not based on class, necessarily. We read from P, and from all the other historians, and all the other literature, much of it is written by Aristocratic men who, well off, who were citizens. Archaeology gives us the ability to transcend that, it¿s very democratic in that sense. It doesn¿t care how much money you had, when you were digging that stuff up, that¿s what you¿re focused on, and you could be digging up the stuff of a farmer, of a shop keeper, or of a politician, or of a king, it doesn¿t matter. So that¿s one of the things that appeals to me about archaeology. And it rounds out the evidence, when you hear about the Persian sacking Athens in 480, you hear about that in Merodiis (sp), but when you actually pull up the material from that time period it actually brings it all home, it makes it all real for you, and then ultimately, for the people who are going to see that in museum, then there¿s also inscriptions that also add to our view of the world, whether that¿s graffiti, whether that¿s funeral monuments, whether it¿s laws, not all of it¿s recorded in T, or another historian Herafitus (sp) or another historian Zenafan (sp) it¿s not all in there. There are big gaps and it helps us to fill in the gaps and helps to answer some of the questions.
25:52 CJ to Megan Gandi¿I just want to ask you why you like to be here. My name is MG and I¿m going to be starting a PhD program in classics at Princeton in the fall. And this is my second year digging up the Agora¿.laughs and becomes nervous.
MG I want to study Greek history. CJ so what does coming to the site and digging for artifacts do for you as a student? MG It keeps me grounded and it helps me to remember why I am studying the languages, why I spend so much time struggling with Greek and Latin. I feel that over the past year it has really kept me focused on why I want to do this, because it is a difficult discipline. Anyone that says it¿s not is lying, I think. CJ Do you ever get the feeling¿I¿m studying something that¿s dead? MG No I don¿t, it¿s very real to me and I can¿t think of anything else that I would rather be studying. And one of the things about coming here is that it makes it so real. I mean we¿re sitting right over where the great orders spoke during the fifth century. And when I was on the Acropoliss today, I get goose bumps every time that I go, because you just feel a real connection to the people that were here thousands of years ago.
Interview Ends AMBI begins¿.
28:53 Ambi of birds, a strong wind and music faintly playing in the background. Dogs bark too.
30:09 BELLS Begin
30:24 JD in addition to my great love of ancient history, classics, I¿m a political junkie, you know I watch the news, I listen to the radio probably just as much, unfortunately as I read Greek and Latin, and what keeps me going in studying history, literature and Archaeology is the lessons that it can be gleaned from this material, to apply to our own culture, to apply to our own times. And in fact T thought the exact same thing when he was writing the book, just a couple lines, he says¿
31:55 JD reads lines¿
Yet if they are judged useful by any who wish to look at the plain truth at both past events and those that at some future time, in accordance with human nature will, recur in similar or comparable ways that will suffice. It is a possession for all time, not a competition piece to be heard for the moment but has been composed.
32:23 CJ and your interpretation of that is?
32:25 JD my interpretation of that is, is that T sees this as not avertedly educational, but certainly informing the future leaders of his own time I think of Athens. He wrote the work from the end of the Palepensian war, and he saw the end of it. He saw what happened. And there is no telling when he actually wrote these lines, but there is not doubt that this was composed for the future leaders of the Athenian democracy, perhaps. Well actually there is doubt, or was it for us? The heirs of the Athenian ideas and values? I like to think that he saw beyond his own day and age, to other times, and I do think the echoes to our democratic predecessors in Athens and in Rome, all of those things, are echoed in the very actions of they successors, whether that be the president of the US or Prime Minister of Britain it¿s all the same game, there really is nothing new,
34:32 JD will read his previous passage from 31:55 again because he stumbled a bit.
34:59 JR walking the streets of Athens for Ambi.
35:07 AMBI Bus takes off.
35:32 AMBI street noise, cars horns and people yelling.
36:16 AMBI conversation between two men in Greek. Waterfall or hose of some sort. Music begins in background.
37:01 AMBI Greek conversations, music continues (piano?). Chatter by bystanders.
37:58 Group of people walk by speaking Greek. Music (guitar?) becomes louder. Good AMBI
39:00 CJ you play any Jango? (sp) New song begins.
40:53 Music fades¿.
41:11 Person singing, sounds like in a town plaza or something. You can hear people walking by.
41:50 Person singing¿
42:28 footsteps and people faintly in the background.
42:55 People chatter becomes louder. JR pauses.
43:21 Street sound. Loud bangs from something?
44:00 Greek conversation fades in and out, loud bangs continue.
44:49 Car drives by.
45:08 New AMBI of street Cars pulling up, cars/trucks pulling away, motorcycles and buses.
46:25 NEW AMBI of music people walking by.
47:54 New Ambi of street noise and people talking. All in Greek, motorcycle rides by. (sounds like a restaurant. Very upbeat music.)
49:02 about three motorcycles rides by.
50:00 Chatter between group, about to enter restaurant.
50:34 Music and singing begins. Bazouki ? Man singing.
53:38 Song ends¿restaurant chatter. New song begins.
56:28 Song ends, clapping and restaurant chatter.
57:06 New song begins slowly¿instrument solo
57:52 Other instruments begin and singing.
1:00:24 Greek conversations. Music and singing play in background.
1:02:45 Song ends¿new one picks up¿
1:05:52 Group begins to sing.
1:06:39 Applause¿new song begins. Instrument solo. Great!!
1:08:22 New song begins.
1:12:16 Song ends. Clapping. New song starts.
1:13:00 Clapping to song begins¿
1:16¿37 song ends. Musicians speak Greek. Restaurant chatter is loud.
1:18:02 New song starts
1:21:27 song ends¿
1:22:45 Clapping begins
1:25:35 Song ends, new song begins.
1:29:50 JR talks with Musicians. Chatter continues and there is no music.
1:33;43 music picks up again over the chatter.
1:38:50 Music stops¿and chatter outside of the bar.
1:40:18 New music from club plays, street noise and chatter.
1:41:50 Motorcylce drives by.
1:42:00 End of tape and Ambi.