ML 148494


Interview 3:58 - 24:45 Play 3:58 - More
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Yannis Arbelius, Katerina Sklere  






Reconstruction of the Temple of Zeus at Nemea  

Interview 30:47 - 50:02 Play 30:47 - More
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Stephen G. Miller  






Reconstruction of the Temple of Zeus at Nemea  

Sound Effects 52:00 - 55:18 Play 52:00 - More
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Stone cutting saw  







Interview 56:15 - 1:31:11 Play 56:15 - More
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Nicos Makris  






Reconstruction of the Temple of Zeus at Nemea  

Interview 1:37:17 - 1:40:57 Play 1:37:17 - More
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Yannis Iordanoglou  






Nemean Games' ancient trumpets  

NPR/NGS Radio Expeditions
3 Jun 2004 at 11:45

  • Greece
  • Temple of Zeus at Nemea
  • 37.809   22.71
  • Stereo
    Sampling Rate
  • 48kHz
    Bit Depth
  • 16-bit
    Equipment Note
  • Decoded MS Stereo and Split Track

Show: Greece
Log of DAT: Tape #3 Clone
Engineer: Josh Rogusin
Date: June 3, 2004

SM = Stephen Miller
KS = Katerina Sklere
NM = Nicos Makris
YA = Yannis Arbelius
YI = Yannis Iordanoglou

Setting up interview thru 4:06

4:16 ¿ I am Katarina Sklarie and I am an architect engineer. 4:24 I am a supervisor at the Temple of Zeus at Nemea.

4:37 Yannis ¿ in greek thru 4:50 (?) ¿ trans: my name is Yannis Arbelias (?) I am a marbke worker and a technician. I have worked on many antiquities like the Parthenon, at Delphi, at Pecatarios (?). Now I am here together with Katarina and Stephen Miller to do the best job I can possibly do on the reconstruction of the temple of Zeus. 5:25

6:00 ¿ CJ ¿ How long have you been working on this site and what is it you hope to see by the time you are finished. 6:08

S Miller translates

6:19 ¿ Katarina in Greek ¿ then Miller trans: 6:50 I worked on the temple, on the pilot reconstruction project of the 2 columns in 1984 and then again in the 2nd phase from 1999 ¿ 2004. I also prepared the study of the reconstruction of 4 more columns and we are actually beginning the reconstruction of these columns. 7:25

7:26 Katarina ¿ Greek

7L45 trans of Katarina: she has every hope that w/in a maximum of 5 years that the 4 columns they are working on now will be finished and that the work will be carried out on the north side with 5 more new columns or ancient columns in that time.

CJ ¿ you are from this area ¿ or around there ¿ can you tell me a little bit about why it is important to you personally, to get this reconstructed?

8:23 Katarina in Greek

8:46 Kat trans ¿ The reconstruction of a temple is a different undertaking and one that requires a great deal of hard work. I feel fortunate and I want to thank Mr. Miller for the opportunity for the work (Mr. Miller would add: we are all fortunate that she has). 9:04

9:06 Katarina in Greek
9:22 Kat trans ¿ This project has given her the opportunity to meet and get to know the real leaders in the field of Greek architecture like Manolis Louris, NAMES of others¿ and from them she is learning a great deal as the project progresses. 9:41

CJ to Yannis ¿ you have spent many years, perhaps your whole life ¿ working on this kind of project in Athens, and here ¿

Trans ¿

9:58 Yannis in Greek

10:27 Yannis trans by Miller ¿ I started working as a young man in 1954 as a your man of 14 years of age. I began on the Odeon of Herodes Atticus to the south of the Acropolis and continued work on the reconstruction of the Stoa of Atacus that was undertaken bu the American School of Classical Studies in Athens.

10:48 Yannis in Greek

11:48 Yannis trans by Miller ¿ There is not a place with antiquities in Greece that I haven¿t worked. I have been able to make contributions both in the mainland and on the islands for example, most recently with the Macedonian tombs of Philip in Bergina (?) in Northern Greece. I feel very fortunate that at this stage of my life I am still able to make a contribution particularly here at the Temple of Zeuss, to make a contribution in the training of young men to carry on the tradition of which I am so proud. 12:22

12:24 CJ ¿ I will ask both of you ¿ this morning you spent a lot of time talking with the workmen. Give us an idea of what you are telling them to do. What is really important to know to do this job properly. 12:36

12:37 Miller trans

13:00 Yannis ¿ Greek

14:00 SM translates ¿ we talked about many different subjects this morning, but in general, the most important thing is to help create a sense of confidence. The technicians here are young and they don¿t have a great deal of experience and they are very sensitive to the idea that they are working with antiquities. Are afraid to take a step forward. So by encouraging them and showing them how to do things we hope to overcome that. For ex. We were working on the planning of the drums of columns ¿ something that we are not absolutely certain how the ancients did, but we think we understand it and we are trying to reproduce that understanding in our own work. We are concerned in the end that we have all done something that we can be proud of.

14:53 ¿ CJ ¿ let me ask you about the feeling that Greek people in general have. How aware are they of places like this ¿ the reconstruction - the recovery first and then the reconstruction ¿ does it fill them with a sense of pride? Do they pay much attention to it? To the relationship btwn culture and antiquities?

15:22 SM translates

15:51 Katarina in Greek

16:15 SM trans ¿ all of the people that come here are very interested and that extends from the everyday visitor who comes with out any particular knowledge who begins to see a temple instead of a pile of ruins to archaeologists and specialists in the field have all expressed uniformly their great pleasure of what is happening and their approval of it. 16:43

16:46 Yannis in Greek
17:15 SM transl ¿ He believes that Greeks always show it are extremely proud of their antiquities in general and this one in particular case. There maybe a difference of opinions of how to go about things but in the end, when all is said and done, they are very proud of the antiquities in Greece. 17:39

CJ ¿ this is a special year bc of the Olympics in Greece. Again, how do you feel about the Olympics being held in Greece and especially given that you are working on the the ancient Olympics?

17:52 SM trans

18:10 Yannis in Greek

18:36 SM trans ¿ he is proud of the work that is going on, proud that the games are coming back, and particularly feels fortunate and thanks god for the opportunity to do this work which is so central to the Olympic movement.

18:56 Katarina in Greek

19:10 SM trans ¿ he said it all.

19:15 CJ ¿ do you think that people appreciate the ancient games ¿ people in the US know very little about the ancient games they are so obsessed with the modern games ¿ with your knowledge of the ancient games was it a different philosophy then than it is today ¿ about competition?

SM trans

20:05 Yannis in Greek

21:30 SM trans ¿ He believes that the spirit of the games of antiquities were very different from the spirit of the fames today. There was an element of culture that doesn¿t exist today, and the ancient games after all, were sacred and that element of religious sacredness certainly doesn¿t exist today. The games today seem to be more of an arena where different countries can come and try to promote their own national interest and marketing has taken over sp that it seems there is almost a direct relationship to the amount of money that you put into the fame and the number of victories that you come away with. But they are missing the joy of competition; the joy of unity that he believes was a part of the ancient games.

22:27 Katarina in Greek

22:45 SM trans ¿ I am afraid that we missed an opportunity both for that Greece has lost an opportunity both for non Greeks and for Greeks themselves to learn more about the ancient games - to show more about what the ancient games were about ¿ given that there was an opportunity having the modern games in Greece this year. 23:05

23:11 CJ ¿ what does it mean to be a Greek?

23:24 Yannis in Greek

24:10 SM trans ¿ to be a Greek is something very special bc of the tradition of culture that has been here. He doesn¿t want to speak egotistically. He doesn¿t mean to say that Greece is ahead of other countries today bc there are certainly other countries that are ahead of Greece in terms of material progress. But there is a sense of culture that gives Greeks a deserved pride in their own traditions. 24:43

Katarina ¿ I agree.

24:55 end of interview with above people

26:00 ¿ 27:54 M/S ambi for split track intvw ¿ nice birds, some talking in bg

28:41 ¿ 30:37 m/s ambi ¿ general Nemea ambi ¿ where we talked with SM yesterday ¿ close to house ¿ nice birds, not so many tractors

30:37 ¿ SM ¿ one of the problems that we have with the reconstruction is that there are ancient blocks that are partially preserved fragments have broken away from it, and we have to replace the fragments with new stone. The ancient block has a broken surface and we need to be able to put a new stone surface against that broken surface. In older times one would have shaved off the broken surface, nice and even and just put the surface of the new stone against that, but now a days that is not believed to be the proper way to approach things bc if you ever found the missing piece with its broken surfave that matches the broken surface that you do have you could never replace it bc you carved away and further more, if the purpose is to preserve the antiquities we shouldn¿t be chipping them up, we should be respecting them. So what we do is to take a plaster mold ¿ we make a mold of the broken surface of each block (32:03). We copy that mild into stone and we do that with a pointing device that has a number of arrows ¿ points ¿ steel rods ¿ that come down in intervals a grid system from the mold is translated back onto the stone and so you¿re constantly checking the depth that you¿re carving to until you come down to the point that you have established from the mold.

32:00 SM: ¿of the broken surface of the ancient block. And then we copy that mold into stone and we do that through a pointing device that has a number of arrows¿points¿steel rods that come down at intervals¿a grid system from the mold that¿s translated from the mold back onto the stone and so you¿re constantly check in the depth that you¿re carving to until you come down to the point that you have established from the mold. Once you have all these individual points made and they¿re at four centimeter intervals¿.about an inch and a half intervals. Then you go back and connect the dots as it were.

32:45 CJ: So in essence you¿re making a negative of the surface of the edge of the old stone so that then you can slide the new version in and it fits almost like dentistry.

32:58 SM: Yes¿Yes. That¿s a very good analogy and it¿s a very close analogy. That¿s exactly right.

(Introductions of Niko to the group)

33:36: We were just talking about this process of cropping stones. But we did want to talk about how you go about reconstructing the temple and the columns or pillars.

33:52 NK: Multi-drum columns.

33:54 CJ: Multi-drum columns¿which is one thing that I learned here is that it¿s not in one piece. Surprise. Surprise.

34:00 NK: And there are many reasons behind that.

34:02 CJ: And we just touched on them but we¿d like for you to talk about that some more.

(Excuse Niko from the group for a while)

34:54 SM: Once the negative impressions are made; and you¿re absolutely right. You¿re creating a negative impression just as you would in dentistry. Then you take this new stone to the ancient block and fit it and see. It¿s rare that it fits perfectly the first time. You make minor little corrections here and there until it fits. Then you have to glue the new stone to the old stone. There we use an adhesive that¿s basically cement. The reason for that is that we¿re trying to approximate as nearly as we can the chemical and physical characteristics of the stone itself. We¿ve learned over the years that if you use high powered glues like epoxies, which are wonderful glues, they form an impermeable seal that will not allow moisture to travel through the stone. So moisture will come through osmosis up against the epoxy layer, stop and gradually will rot the stone. The glue stays forever but the stone begins to disintegrate. We need to allow the moisture to go through so we use less powerful adhesive but one that matches the qualities of the stone. We also pin the new piece to the old with titanium rods. Titanium, so far as we can tell, it¿s not been around for a century yet, it¿s not going to rust it¿s not going to expand with rusting. It¿s not going to give us those sort of problems and we thread the rods like a big long bolt. So that the grooves or threads bite into the cement, which we again we use as an adhesive in the holes that we drill that the rods go into. This technique has worked very well. We have no doubts that we continue to do so.

37:00 SM: The next step after we¿ve put the new stone onto the old stone is we have to carve the new stone down to the dimensions of the old stone. We¿ve always left a little buffer, a little cushion around the sides. So we have to carve it down so it matches the exterior surfaces of the old stone, and in some cases we have to, in the column drums we have to carve flutes, which will be the finishing touch.

37:26 CJ: It¿s a lot of work.

37:27 SM: Yes¿Yes, it¿s a lot of work.

37:29 CJ: And working in stone, it¿s slow work.

37:32 SM: Yes it is. It¿s slow work but it seems to be the best way to go about it. The men over here now are setting up a piece of new stone and the mold taken from the old stone, and it has to be set very precisely so that you can transfer back and forth between the model that you¿re imitating and the new block that you¿re going to be creating. You can see they¿re working with levers and levels, and rulers, and what have you, to get their new blocks set exactly in the right position, vis-à-vis, the model that they¿ll be working from.

38:12 CJ: You know, I wonder¿people now a days are so used to being able to do things quickly using power tools¿doing things the fast way. Is it difficult to get people to start thinking in terms of doing things in a more old fashioned way to get it just right¿and get it done the way it might have been done before.

38:36 SM: The men do this. They understand the principle behind why they should do it. They are always looking for ways to do it faster. You¿re absolutely right, it¿s a human trait, and so when they can, they will use an air hammer instead of a chisel. They will use different power tools, grinders¿and what have you, instead of hand tools whenever they can. They would love to be able to use computer controlled laser guides to do this process of recreating the surface mechanically and actually such machines exist. In Italy, they¿re widely used in restoration projects but they¿re incredibly expensive¿$50,000 for the cheapest model we could use. Just is the case with digital photography, where there are great advantages to digital photography, and yet because digital photography is based upon dots, pixels¿it is never quite as high resolution as real photography is. So here using computer controlled lasers never connects the dots quite as precisely as it does when the human computer and hand are connected together and working together. It¿s really a question of how precise you¿re going to be.

40:03 ¿ 41:55: ambi (sounds of machines scoring, tapping)

42:00 ¿ 43:14: ambi (more machinery sounds...w/some talking)

43:32: ambi (sound of tapping stone with hammer & chisel)

45:55 JR: (this is where they cut the stone¿water. It¿s MS stereo)

45:59 SM: This is the headquarters of the chainsaw which we cut the rough boulders that come out of the quarry down into the blocks that were ultimately then cut down to more precise shape and size by hand.

46:40 SM: We¿re in the headquarters of the chainsaw which we use to cut down the huge, rough boulders that come from the quarry to the basic size and shape that we¿ll need. The final shaping is done by hand tools. But this is a saw that consists really of chain that has at intervals of every inch and a half, two inches a little lead inserts into which are embedded microscopic pieces of diamond that¿s artificially made diamonds¿not real diamonds. That is what does the real cutting the friction of that going, round, and round, and round. One of these chains, about 17 meters or 50 feet of chain is going round, and round, and round and cutting gradually slicing down like slicing bread through this limestone. There¿s a lot of water that¿s sprinkled into it all the time to keep the chain from overheating and on occasion if it runs up suddenly up against hard piece in the core of the stone, the chain can break and it gets a little exciting when that chains goes flying off 50 ft toward the temple so they don¿t want anybody standing down hill as it were from the chain as it¿s working. But it¿s been a great savings for us although the saw itself is expensive to acquire, it¿s been a great savings as far as to be able to cut our own blocks here and not have to take them to a shop.

48:27 CJ: And you¿re slicing it vertically as you would slice a loaf of bread.

48:30 SM: Exactly¿Exactly. And then we¿ll lie it down on its side and chop off one side. Then turn it 90 degrees and chop off another side then turn it another 90 degrees and chop another side and we¿ll have a nice rectangular piece of stone that we¿ll work into the final shape.

48:49 CJ: How would the ancient Greeks have cut this stone?

48:53 SM: They started in the quarries laying out the blocks that they wanted and then they used a hand pick to chop down through the stone. We have the remains of the cuts that they made. They would make these cuts as much as a foot in width. So they would be chopping both sides of the cut as it were. So that they could themselves stand in the cut as they went deeper, and deeper, and deeper, depending on the size of the block that they were cutting up. They would cut around three sides of the block from the top and then the bottom they would not cut through but they would break it away they would cut holes into the stone; stick into their wedges, sometimes iron wedges which were driven in. Sometimes wooden wedges which were then wet and once they were wet, they expanded and the stone would split off. We have in the quarries the rough edges, very smooth sides of the cut with the ax and the very rough bottom surface of the splitting off of the stone.

50:07 JR: (This is ambience for that ??¿sound of machines cutting stone)

51:42 JR: Ok¿I¿m going to go and get a close-up of the saw.

52:00: (loud sawing noise¿JR: Here is the ambi of a chain saw cutting through a huge block in MS stereo. 52:15-55:00)

55:24 JR: This is going to be split track with CJ on the right channel.

56:10 JR: Can you introduce yourself and tell us what you had for lunch today?

56:15 NM: Well my name is Nikos Micres(sp) I am a Professor of Structural Mechanics and Civil Engineering at the University of California, Berkeley. This year I¿m on a leave from UC Berkeley with the Univ of Patras where I¿m teaching also here in Greece.

56:52 NM: I am Nikos Micres ¿

57:31 CJ: We¿re in an archaeological site with a temple that¿s 25 years old. It¿s not the usual kind of place that people would think of an engineer. Can you explain why you need an engineer in order to recreate this?

57:52 NM: My involvement in this job was a little peculiar. Five years ago when I was a junior faculty at UC Berkeley I was deeply involve with the seismic¿s(sp) ability of electrical equipment and one of the most interesting issues is the stability during earthquakes. I started then understanding how heavy transformers can overturn during earthquakes. My attention then was attracted from the stability from classical columns which are much more slender structures. Few buildings down the campus, I knew there was archaeologist, Professor Steven Miller who was involved with the reconstruction of a temple in Greece. So I talked to him about my discoveries in the area of rock and the stability of rigid blocks and slender structures and later on I was training at seminars at our dept in Civil Engineering. After learning about the achievements of Steven Miller in Nemea, I invited him to give us a presentation in ?? series in Civil Engineering. After that we started informal collaboration about understanding the seismic ability of multi-drum classical columns.

59:53 CJ: Now when you say multi-drum what does that mean.

59:56 NM: It¿s that each column that is about 11 meters tall is not one single stone but it consists of 13 drums. The bottom one has a diameter of about 1.5 meters. The top one has a slightly smaller diameter and on top of that there is an epistyle.

1:00:29 CJ: An epistyle is¿?

1:00:32 NM: An epistyle is the top stone element that bridges two columns.

1:00:43 CJ: So in a sense then it¿s¿I think you used the metaphor, it¿s like a vertebra¿or maybe¿

1:00:54 NM: It is well known that ancient Greeks have the technology and the capability to build monolithic columns. For instance, the temple here in Corinth that is more than 200 years older is constructed with monolithic columns. Each column is one piece of stone. But we see that soon after the period when the temple of Corinth was built that the ancient Greeks moved their technology from one big stone to several stones to several drums, one on top of the other.

1:01:41 CJ: Why do they do that?

1:01:43 NM: They do that because it seems that they understood that a multi-drum column is more stable to ground shaking than a monolithic one. First of all I should say that although columns from ancient Greek temples are very slender structures, the ratio of their height to their base is more than 6 which is a very high # for free standing structures. The fact that they are more stable to earth quake shaking is because of their size. In the mid 60¿s it was understood that a big slender structure is more stable to ground shaking than small structure of the same slenderness. So if you have two objects that have the same ratio, height over base, but with different size, the biggest one is more stable, which is a little counter-intuitive.

1:03:02 CJ: But one reason why tall buildings in San Francisco actually do better than the small buildings, sometimes.

1:03:09 NM: Well it¿s not exactly the same because tall buildings in San Francisco and all over the world when they are subjected to earth quakes they tend to flexure; whereas, in this case, there is no flexure. These are rigid bodies and their dynamics is governed strictly by rocking and sliding, so we can not make an analogy but what we have to remember is that among two objects that have the same slenderness but different size the bigger one is more stable. They knew this and they¿re building big columns to make them stable but then their technology improves and they make them multi-drum. The reason is that when an earthquake strikes the column, the column now has the capable to dislocate at every level of each drum. There are slight dislocations, which are small slidings in addition to small rotations. This distributed movement is very beneficial because it disorganizes the energy that is induced by the earthquake. Assuming that the induced shaking attempts to impose a center pattern of returning the fact that the column can dislocate at several levels, it disorganizes the pattern and then the column has a second line of defense in terms of stability.

1:05:09 CJ: When you say dislocate, it is the same as dissipate?

1:05:13 NM: Well the dissipation is a result of dislocation. When it dislocates you have friction forces that develop between interfaces and this friction force creates dissipation.

1:05:25 CJ: Does it amaze you that people 2500 years ago understood this?

1:05:30 NM: Well, I have no¿I can not prove that they discovered it but maybe they had enough intuition or enough experience to feel it. But there is one reason that convinced me that maybe they had deep understanding about this behavior. In Greek, the word drum is called spondulous (sp). Spondulous is the element of our vertibraed column. By naming it that way, they attempted to express the mobility and resilience that our vertibraed column has in the same way that the column of the temple has when it is shaking by ground motions.

1:06:40 CJ: You¿re going to be reconstructing more of these columns, can you give me a brief description of ¿do you stack the pieces one on the other? do you go about doing this once you¿ve patterned them?

1:06:55 NM: These temples were built around 330 before Christ and it consisted of a peristyle. A peristyle is an array of column that is outside and in the center there was a building that was built with rectangular stone blocks. At that stage we¿re only going to reconstruct four columns from the exterior peristyle. From the exterior peristyle there is only one standing from the ancient times. In the early 80¿s, there was an effort to start the reconstruction project, this was initiated by Prof Miller in Greece and in California. In the mid 80¿s, there was a permit issued to reconstruct two columns aspart of our pilot reconstruction. This pilot reconstruction was completed in the summer of 2002. Part of the delay was lack of funding. So, now we have 3 columns from the peristyle. The ancient one that was always standing, and two that were recently reconstructed.

1:08:36 NM: In addition to two columns from the interior of the temple, we¿re now going to reconstruct four more¿maybe I can show you. We plan to close this corner so we¿re going to build 3 more columns on the east side and 1 column that is left from the north side, so we can close the northeast corner of the temple. So when the visitor approaches the temple he can enjoy a more clear view of the size and geometry of the structure.

1:09:17 CJ: During the ancient games, what went on inside the temple?

1:09:27 NM: Well this is not part of my expertise. I know very little. I think Prof Miller could give you a more precise answer on that but I can tell you more about the engineering aspects of the reconstruction.

1:09:50 CJ: And the large pieces there, those are the drums there that are sitting basically on blocks¿are they being prepared for eventually going up into columns?

1:10:01 NM: I told you earlier that these classical, multi-drum columns have enormous seismic stability but this is true only if the drums have their initial geometry. When the columns were toppled by man maybe 1700 years ago, the piece of the temple, which are the drums, the capitals and the epistyles that were lying on the ground, they went through enormous erosion. You can see that the stone blocks which are on ethe ground are in much worse condition for example, over there you can see the drums of the column that lies on the ground are in much worse conditions than the drums of the columns that have always stood. This argument, preservation of the material is our strongest argument of why we are reconstructing.

1:11:21 CJ: If you leave it on the ground it wastes away, it gets eroded

1:11:24 NM: If we leave it on the ground, the ancient material is exposed to much more adverse environment. There is humidity, there is water, snow, ice in the winter; very high temperatures in the summer. There are micro-organisms as they penetrate even in some cases the holes that have been created from the erosion are so big that they you can see weeds coming out from the ancient material. So the strongest argument why we¿re reconstructing is to preserve the material. But in order to make a stable column, we have now to give back to the ancient stone, its original geometry. In most cases, the drums have lost big portions from the corners and in order to retrofit them we have to add new material that was made from the same stone¿this is a limestone. The entire temple is made from limestone. Its not a marble temple like ?? Limestone is a poorer material.
Because of that it has its own charm. So this is why we¿re going through this retrofitting process.

1:12:59 CJ: I wonder¿All these drums are spread around this area. How do you know which ones go back together again?

1:13:12 NM: When the reconstruction idea was rooted in the early 80¿s, there was a fellow from the states. Prof Frederick Cooper from the Univ of Minnesota, who is an architect with great experience in archaeology who came here with his students and with other students and they measured and recorded more than 1,100 stone blocks that were on the ground near by the temple. By starting the measurements and by using several constraints, for example we know that each column has 13 drums and each drum has different sizes because as you go from bottom to top, the column becomes more and more narrow. So we have constraints they were able to put these pieces back together so this was done in the early 80¿s (81, 82), by Prof Frederick Cooper, so we had a start of an ?? of the temple. There are small permutations that we done while reconstructing we found that one stone block should go from here to there. Also I should mention that since the Cooper study there was more material found near by especially in a nearby river here that completed the puzzle and now we¿re moving along the Cooper study and our ultimate goal is to reconstruct as many columns as possible.

1:15:21 CJ: Then it really is a puzzle. You¿ve come across this site with pieces of this entire¿the temple, other parts of buildings that were all spread around, grown over with weeds like pieces of a puzzle that have been thrown by a child in a playroom and you¿ve got to put them together again.

1:15:40 NM: But like I said, all these stone blocks have been measured and catalogued so my job is not that hard. My job now is just to put them back together and make sure that this reconstruction meets the laws of ?? and stability

1:16:18 NM: I think one important element is that a huge effort in the reconstruction process is the reconstruction of the base. As you see here the base is built not with cylindrical drums but is built with rectangular stone blocks. Rectangular stone blocks are more attractive to people in order to build other structures. So there is a great deal of stone blocks from the base that have been stolen and now they have disappeared. So we have put an enormous effort in preparing new material primarily to reconstruct the base on top of which the columns will rest.

1:17:19 CJ: Because they were basically taken and used in the medieval church?

1:17:23 NM: Medieval churches and other structures later on. I can go into more detail for example the stones of the exterior face of temple at the base, they are connected with clamps. Iron clamps but ancients knew that to prevent rusting, they¿re pouring lead on top of them. Actually I can show you.

1:18:00 CJ: Sure. (walking)

1:18:02 NM: They are so nicely done actually you are going to see something now that very few people will see because we just moved away this piece of stone. We¿re going to piece it together and then put it back, so not very many people have the occasion to see these connections.

1:18:25 CJ: It looks like a staple.

1:18:26 NM: It¿s a staple. That¿s exactly a big staple¿s an iron staple that goes from here to here. It has exactly the shape of a staple. On top of it is the lead that they have poured and you can see that the connection that was made 2500 years ago looks like brand new. Here and here and here and then we can go to the other side where people have tried to eradicate one of these because people were trying to steal iron.

1:18:59 CJ: And that¿s the iron that¿s in there, or that¿s been taken out?

1:19:02 NM: No, no¿this is iron, this is lead but it¿s so perfect that you think that something is missing.

1:19:11 CJ: And then they took the lead out just to use it to make bullets, or

1:19:17 NM: Yes, they¿re taking the lead and the iron. The ancients are putting the lead to protect the iron inside from rusting.

1:19:29 CJ: And the initial reason it¿s there is to hold these together to keep them from sliding apart?

1:19:37 NM: Well, it¿s very interesting. Only the outer blocks are connected. This is because the ancient believed very strongly in keeping the straight lines of the perimeter of the temple. So only the outer stones are connected. If you go to the inner stones, these are not connected. I don¿t know how much element of wisdom is there but the fact that the inner stones are not connected and they can move, slide during earthquakes, these are also beneficial element in the seismic stability of the entire structure that only a part of the stones are connected to keep perfect geometry. But the inner stones are not connected to provide elementary form of seismic adulation to the structure above.

1:20:37 CJ: Kind of like wearing a belt.

1:20:38 NM: Exactly. So they¿re creating this belt which is connected to keep the straight lines that you see here the joint is still perfect¿.2500 years and now a days with modern equipment we¿ll have a hard time meeting the tolerances that the ancient people could achieve with the equipment of that time.

1:21:13 CJ: Yea. You couldn¿t even squeeze a penny in there in that join

1:21:15 NM: No. Actually the joint has a tolerance, which is of the fraction of a millimeter.

1:21:25 CJ does it¿NM I can show you the new joints, that we are achieving and you can see that they are good, but not that much better. So this is a joint of two new stones that we¿ve just placed. CJ although over time wouldn¿t they settle together and the joint would fill in with dirt and¿NM exactly, exactly. And then dirt and debris and there is also a process of crystallization, and at the end everything looks like one big stone.

1:22:07 chatter about interview sounds and repeating things.

1:22:44 CJ If you could go over how they designed these columns to withstand earthquakes, perhaps not the way we do now, but with a bit of knowledge withstanding shock.

1:22:58 NM well we have to admit that by the time this temple is built they had an enormous experience. If one goes to more ancient temples, the columns were shorter in height and bigger in diameter. But as there confidence was improving and their technology was improving, they could move to more slender columns. The columns of the temple of Zeus are among the most slender columns of all the temples in Greece. So on one hand they had this experience and could build on past knowledge, on the other hand you had to realize that the farther they moved their technology from building monolithic columns which is a single big stone block, to columns that they consist of several drums.

1:24:04 CJ and in so doing it helped them achieve..NM achieve better seismic ability. I am convinced that this was not an accident. There is much more work involved in creating the surfaces. It¿s hard to claim that they did this because it was easier. They did this because it was better. And they had this enormous appreciation for excellence and there looking after doing things that was better than what there fathers and grandfathers were doing.

1:24:47 CJ and things also that would be built to last longer. Knowing that they really wanted this to last forever.

1:25:02 NM it is kind of interesting when I was trying to do a seismic hazard analysis for the temple. In California for example we use a design earthquake that has a return period for 500 years and then we have maximum credit earthquake, which is the most extractive earthquake that can happen ever, which has a return period of 2,500 years. Well this structure has proven that it can stand 2,400 years, which is the most earthquake, we hope to design the best engineering structures of the 21st century.

125:59 CJ and actually it¿s not an earthquake that brought this down, it was people. NM it was definitely man, yes. And this is another argument for construction, since this was brought down by people, us people we have the obligation to put it back together. So the strongest argument is to preserve the ancient material and the second argument is to make up for what other people have done to this temple.

1:26:36 JG is there one thing in particular that you have learned from this study here that you haven¿t seen at other sites or other research?

1:26:47 NM we learn things all the time. The great thing about this project is that it¿s an active laboratory. It¿s not only a laboratory for people who study archaeology, but it¿s a laboratory for us who are interested in structures. For example, I was telling you earlier about the perfection of doing connections, the connection in matology, they knew that they had to protect iron with lead. I myself understood that multi drum structures have seismic stability that monolific columns because we manage to solve this problem a year ago. But the motivation for starting this is because we saw it. So the project, an additional benefit of the excavation project is that it is an active laboratory, that is a source of ideas, a source of experience that we have to go back into the office and analyze it and back calculating why people did it that way and when we do this back calculating we find out there was an element of brilliance. When they did the first time.

1:28:55 this is MS stereo for the interview. Chatter among JG, CJ and NM.

1:30;30 NM the construction project is not an easy project. Everyday there are difficulties that arise, and we have to address them on site and we have to sometimes make quick decisions and we have to sometimes make long studies, but what is most adamant is dedication of the people who work here, of the people who carve stones, everyday and they try to emulate the best possible way what the ancient stone carvers are doing 2,400 years ago.

1:31:10 CJ thank you.

1:31:17 interview ends and AMBI starts in MS stereo. Birds, airplane overhead, flute (?) lots of wind.

1:33:30 Ambi cont. car, birds

1:34:34 This is MS stereo walking into the stadium.

1:36:34 introductions of crew and story. Man o.k. we have three of them we call them trumpets, ancient trumpets. CJ and these are trumpets that are designed to be like the ancient trumpets. MAN almost, almost, but it¿s difficult to be like the ancient trumpets. CJ do you take the image and design from the ancient vases and euphoria?

1:38:00 MAN the idea is from¿the trumpet is not exactly the same, but close. CJ could you say your name again? MAN, yes my name is¿CJ and you¿re the music teacher. MAN, yes I¿m the conductor of the local band. CJ what instrument do you play? Everything? MAN, no not everything. I¿m a piano player basically. And I play clarinets and but I teach the children this instruments which are going to be used at the games. CJ and what song are they going to play? MAN they are going to play, at the moments that the athletes will start to run.

1:39:14 M2 there are two things, excuse me but there are two different uses for the trumpets. Just the trumpet used in Antiquity was used just to call the crowd¿s attention to the fact that there was going to be something happening an announcement being made. A single trumpet tier would blast out (imitates trumpet) and then the crowd would be quiet. And then the herald would come out and announce, THE NEXT RUNNER WILL BE CHRISTOPHER from Washington and then CW would run out onto the track. And then the crowd would all cheer and then the trumpet would blow again. Shut up is what the trumpet is really saying. And so on and so forth. And then at the end of the race, when they¿ve drawn there slots and they are ready to start, then again the trumpet blasts out, so they know again to be quiet. And then at that point the starter calls out for the race to start the paraparpda (sp) then they run down the track and then the trumpet sounds again so that the winner is announced.

1:40:25 CJ so are they going to do that kind of playing right now? MAN yeah we have the right composition for the welcome.
1:42:01 Horns again
1:42:30 HORN AGAIN.
People speaking Greek

1:25 :26 Trumpet and other instruments begin.

1:46:40 One more time for AMBI

1:48:36 JR says that he is going to get AMBI in MS Stereo.

1:49:19 AMBI BEGINS Wind, crickets, birds.

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