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Interview 6:00 - 19:26 Play 6:00 - More
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Richard Wrangham  

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Bili Ape tracking and habitat; Recorded 9 February, 2001  

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Christophe Boesch  

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Bili Ape tracking and habitat; Recorded 9 February, 2001  

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Karl Ammann  

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Bili Ape search and evidence; Recorded 9 February, 2001  

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Esteban Sarmiento  

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Bili Ape search and evidence; Recorded 9 February, 2001  

Environmental Recording 1:04:40 - 1:08:49 Play 1:04:40 - More
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Night ambi  

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Dendrohyrax 1:09:23 - 1:11:06 Play 1:09:23 - More
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Time of Day: 2110  

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Time of Day: 2115  

Environmental Recording 1:18:06 - 2:07:17 Play 1:18:06 - More
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Red Junglefowl (Domestic type) -- Gallus gallus (Domestic type) 1:43:27 - 1:47:49 Play 1:43:27 - More
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NPR/NGS Radio Expeditions
11 Feb 2001 at 21:10

    Geography
  • DR Congo
    Orientale
    Locality
  • 36.0 km E of Bili; between the Uele and the Mbomou rivers
    Latitude/Longitude
  • 4.13333   25.48333
    Channels
  • Stereo
    Sampling Rate
  • 48kHz
    Bit Depth
  • 16-bit
    Recorders
    Microphones
  • Sennheiser MKH 40
  • Sennheiser MKH 30
    Accessories
    Equipment Note
  • Stereo=2: 1=L, 2=R; Decoded MS stereo

NPR/NGS RADIO EXPEDITIONS
Show: Africa Bili Ape
Log of DAT: 5
Engineer: Thompson
Date: February 9-11, 2001

ng= not good
ok= okay
g =good
vg = very good

00:30 AC and tracker discussing lion tracks on riverbed.

01 :40 We're following this lion along this river bed and these are fairly recent tracks blc they don't have leaves in them, which seems to be how they tell whether they are new or not...CT: which is to say? .. AC: which is to say there's a lion around here ... CH: Either we're following him or he's following us ...

02:50 Tracker gives his name.

04:00 Stopdown

04:33 -5:20 Quiet forest ambi ... bird chatter away. Pair of green bulls.

06:02 RW: You found some footprints? .. CB: No they found some footprints. Is that so exciting? How big are the footprints? .. Normal footprints ... Maybe I go to the normal chimp then. I don't trust the normal footprint... I have the feeling the chimps are somewhere in the south of these two rivers ... RW: further downstream? .. CD: Yeah, because they should go where the water is. And you're on the ridge west of Digbi, between Digbi and Lungbi, you see there is a huge patch of forest in the south, and we went there, between Lungbi and it's very nice forest, big trees, much more open on the ground ... RW: The forest linking the Digbi and the Lungbi ... CB: Exactly. The Lungi is very ?? I believe it flows into the Digbi according to what they explained. There was a big swamp area, but it was dry ... RW: So the question is, is there a big one now? ..

07:50 RW: So how do you feel about this, because it seems to me that we've given up on the idea of a big ape, a gorilla ... let's see, Esteban's here. SO you have the idea of a project now. You'd like to see if the chimps can be approached? .. CB: From the start, I was kind of skeptical about the big ape indications, I just wanted to find out interesting chimp population, sense of unusual behaviors ... RW: to Take Carl's side, there's still some evidence of a big ape, but at any rate. So what's your aim ... CB: I don't think you can discover in two weeks about the cultural aspects of a chimpanzee's population ... RW: You're right, you'd be very lucky ... CB: So that's one of the reasons why it would be important to stay longer. Maybe after 3 months you'll gain some ideas about that prospect, but I tend to think also there is a very low density of animals here. Maybe large diversity, but low density ...

09:39 RW: Yeah, it's impressive how many nests there are in the riverbed ... CB: But they have no choice. RW: but everywhere except the riverbed there are no nests at all, and the riverbed is quite a small area ... CB: Absolutely, I found the same in Gebi, you have the same large number of nests often very low. One was 3 meters high only ... RW: in where? .. CB: In Gebi, the other river. More south, where I went afterwards ... CB: And what's depressing is that none of the trees that they're eating are rare. It seems that all the fruit that we've found so far are from small trees that are relatively common so it's hard to predict where they're going to go, or even come back to any specific place ... CB: I agree. They are feeding on some kinds of bigger trees, but for this kind of one, not so big excitement... RW: They'll never go back there ... CB: Two of guides thought they found two of these trees with the little black kernels we saw in the feces ... RW: Black mango... CB: Exactly, black mango, but they are not find them ... RW: They are common trees ... CB: Yup. One had some red tails visiting it, so maybe it's starting to come...

11:25 RW: In none of the trees I saw of that would've held a party of five chimps for more than twenty minutes and then they would've moved onto the next one ... ES: Were they five animals moving together? .. CB: Looks like, but we didn't follow them for very 10ng...It was quite noisy, so maybe there are some other chimps around ... AC: You mean they were calling a lot? .. CB: Yeah, quite ... RW: But nobody called back? .. CB: No. RW: which river was this on? .. CB: no, it was one two big savannas on a ridge ... RW: In the woodland? .. CB: No, kind of a forest. Some kind of sap trees, big ones. No I was thinking it was going there in the morning and listening ... RW: And which two rivers was this between? .. CB: Near the Gebi river in the south ... RW: The one that links the Digbi and the Lungbi? .. CB: Okay, the Digbi, sorry. Digbi you say, not Gebi? Digbi ... RW: Are they calling it Gebi? .. ES: No, there's a little creek also called Digembala that also comes off the Digbi ...

13:24 CB: You nested there, ha, you slept there ... ES: Last night. No, I've never slept in those places ... ES: Did you see the ground nests? .. CB: Not in Digbi, we arrived too south then went further south to find the water... ES: You didn't see any ground nests at all in Digbi? .. CB: Should be ... ES: But you didn't see any? .. CB: I didn't see any ... ES: And what about the other place? .. CB: yeah, the other one we saw ... ES: And did you think they were night nests, or... CB: I don't know. I don't think so. I mean, chimps are very rare to sleep on the ground in an area with so many elephant traces, I mean it's really quite ... ES: We pulled a lot of hairs from those nests. Sometimes 40,50 hairs ... CB: Maybe in day nests in trees, once we climbed up for somebody who spent an hour and twenty minutes in it, how hairs, I think it was about 20 hairs we collected ... ES: and feces, too? .. CB: No, they don't normally make, don't shit in the nest... ES: adjacent to it... CB: but if it's in the tree, it ends up on the ground ... ES: and if it's a ground nest, it's right next to it. Do you think those are just day nests? .. CB: I'm simply saying, if chimp
rested a long time, when it starts again to move, they normally defecate quite soon. The first few meters. But I mean, I haven't seen the chimp, I have no idea what he really did.

15:30 AC: You mean it didn't recognize you? .. CB: The chimp certainly saw me, yah... AC: How close do you think you got to them? .. CB: Both times about 20 meters, maybe less. AC: 20 m, pretty close ... CB: Yeah, I saw where they left .. ES: But they didn't look big right, just regular chimps? .. CB: I didn't see them ... ES: No footprints ... CB: No, it's on the dry ... Did they sound big? .. CB: chimps always sound big. Quite noisy animals...

17:20 AC: How were you able to get up so close to them in the dry conditions? .. CB: We tried to be. I was with two trackers. I once said, if you can't follow, you should stay at least 20 meters behind me and we went very slowly. But the problem is, it's also dry for chimps and I heard them moving on the ground. A chimp makes the same kind of noise we do when he walks. So if you are careful, it doesn't mean a bigger?? for the chimps. A human can be any kind of animal, even a chimp ...

18:30 AC: So you must go yourself very slowly, make as little noise as possible and listen for the chimp ... CB: It's always the same trick. When you hear them, try to get as quickly a precise idea of the direct and the distance and then you should go quickly enough to be close by in the time that allows you then to be very slow and very careful for the last?? But if you are very careful from the start, you may take V2 an hour to reach
the spot and nobody's there anyway. So you have kind of making a deliberation about it.
That's not always easy ... AC: Congratulations on your find ...

19:55 AC: You want more beans Christophe? .. CB: Maybe not ... French ... CB: I take
some so they can take everything. You want some, Richard? .. RW: Nope, thank you ... CB: That should be it. Some fruit? .. RW: I'm done ... CB: You're done.

20:45 Scraping and washing food dishes ...

22:24 Stopdown

Subsequent to DAT 6 Feb 11, 2001

25:00 Alex Chadwick (AC) and Karl Ammann (KA) interview ... Karl: Photojournalist, has done coffee table boots, lives in Kenya, does photography for stock houses ... started with coffee table book on gorilla. Little research, but lots of questions about space between two gorilla groups ...knew Congo well, came to Bongo looking for answers ... found crested skull, thought it was gorilla, Esteban said chimp ... sent hunter from Cameroon during wars ... couldn't make it ... hung out in this area, reported ground nest ... search turned from skulls to who made these ground nests ...

28:15 I came myself, looked at the ground nests, and the knuckle prints came on top of that, the hair came, which in cases was pretty long, some grey hair which Esteban thought was gorilla, that raised more questions than it answered, then came the DNA results which said chimpanzee and the gorilla thesis was pretty much out. It's out for the ground nests around here. I would have thought there's still a good chance of a few gorillas living in other parts if they ever lived here. But CB seems able to get us part of that answer, when he gets the DNA done on those skulls from Treguran, because hopefully they'll tell us if it's a different subspecies of gorilla, because then we'll know once and for all that they were here. So once we know that, then maybe we will look at other areas. But for me, with these ground nests and knuckle prints and other behaviors that didn't fit chimps, it was worth to have a closer look at this area. So I sent some video tapes around, ask if they want to finance it, asked some scientists if they want to come along as experts ...

29:44 AC: The evidence that you've got includes footprints, feces ... KA: I live with a 60 kg chimp at home, so he sleeps in our bed at night and I take him out to go toilet every morning, so I'm pretty familiar with feces size for a 60 kg chimp, and I can also very easily measure his feet, and I've gotten his knuckles into concrete and measured them and I have here been present myself, we have filmed it, when we have cast knuckle and foot prints, and yes, these are almost twice, in terms of footprints, our print is 23 cm long, we have two prints of 2 and when we arrived here first with the Portuguese team, we powdered one out and measured one of 30 cm. And the knuckle print, we do quite regularly see the 4 inch print which is associated with gorillas, rather than just 3. I've seen it myself. Now it's too spongy. It's a pity, I wish RW and CB would see them, but when I went down there yesterday, it's not clear enough to see it. It's just too dry now. To me it's clear cut. I have no doubts now. These were genuine big knuckle and foot prints made by a big ape, be it a chimp or what ever who had moved in that area pretty close to the ground nests.

31 :30 AC: Do you have an idea about what this might mean? If the scientists aren't going to speculate, I'm not going to make a fool out of myself and speculate ... But, one of the theories that has cropped up in my mind, if you had a gorilla population that was going extinct, a few individuals left here and there, if a male has to leave his native troupe because that's what gorillas do and he roams around and meets chimps regularly, maybe one day he decides to join a group of chimps. I don't know if they would let him. Richard might be better qualified, but he might be able to comer a female or what have you. I wouldn't exclude the hybrid theory, but I'm not an expert on that, but it might explain why we have some very big chimps in here. I am convinced there are chimps that are bigger than the average chimps we know, that's possible also the reason they nest on the ground. I mean, if a chimp is a hundred and twenty kilos instead of 60, 80, 100 kilos, it might be harder to make a tree nest, sleep comfortably in a tree nest w/out crashing to the ground and that might be as good a reason to make a ground nest as any.

33:05 AC: The chimps you're talking about wouldn't be just a little bit bigger? .. KA: Based on feces, based on the footprints, I would say yes, they are about twice the size of a normal chimp. As measuring my chimps feces vs. what we find here and looking at the nests and the footprints, I'm convinced they are bigger. And I'm sure my cameras will sooner or later show us one of these chimps. And then we can all sit down and look at it and argue over how big it really might be.

33:50 AC: You asked all these scientist to investigate this, pretty big undertaking. Attractive idea ... KS: There are other components. When I came in 96, Kabila had signed a lease with Anglo-America, they were going to exploit the whole area for minerals. If there were a gorilla here, you could put serious pressure on Angle-American to recreate this reserve or to be environmentally conscious. A gorilla species that wasn't known would give you that kind of leverage. In the meantime, not that much has changed. If we came up with something interesting. 100 km from here, well-funded nat'l park. Because there's 20, 30 of northern white rhino, just subspecies of white rhino, but that's sufficient for that money to become available. So if we found something here, we could sell the conservation idea so much more easily. Declining human population here, rare for African standards. No cable snare yet, rare by W. African standards. Good population of savanna and forest species. It's not an area that's in crises yet. Maybe that's the answer, let's work in areas that haven't reached crisis yet. Where crisis level has been reached is in my opinion a futile undertaking.

35:58 AC: If you come away from here without answers, what will you do next? .. KA: The challenge as far as I'm concerned is that we'll move the conservation side. George thinks we should do something. Hasn't committed money yet. I want to do something here because I feel it's relatively easier here to assess impact. Know population size, roads. WI helpful missionaries, would know the impact we're having. Would like to try, complain a lot about ineffective conservation orgs, so maybe this is my task. Loved in Africa more than 20 years ...

37:32 AC: Scientists have made the point repeatedly that you can't prove the absence of something... KA: they can't disprove the evidence either. Richard says feces here 3, 4x the biggest he has measured in Uganda, if we know chimps normally nest on the ground and here we have very active leopard, hyena, and elephant population that a chimp would worry about, I would like to know what would make a chimp nest on the ground? The next question is are these really night nests or day nests? Unfortunately, many of these guys haven't seen fresh nests at 9 in the morning. I have. And I'm totally convinced; they are so flattened down in the bowl and they are so smooth that the animal only left two or three hours ago and not 12 hours ago so I'm convinced we are looking at night nests. Or mostly night nests ... the ultimate proof is in the DNA and I don't know where we are going to go with that. One of the night nests was grouped with a chimp from Banghee and a chimp from? and my chimp from home, so there seems to 3 chimps from an area 700 km away and a tree nest from here. So if we do more tree nests here and it falls into that grouping and not the Bongo grouping, then maybe there's a difference between the ground and tree nesting chimps.

39:57 AC: If you were trying to set up a reserve here, how big? We are actually in an existing reserve, but they are only lines on the map. But it's not that I think it should be a reserve. The two or three things I think we can have an impact are A. reduce the hunting
of chimps. Chimps relatively easily hunted in this area. Education of villagers with videos. Message easy to get across in Bili. Could be done as pilot project. See is it triggers lasting change. Other thing, really only started hunting elephants here 4, 5 years ago when people stopped coming to buy their coffee. They need some income, need to buy bicycle tire, battery. Hard with Congolese franc. Can sell meat over the border for hard
currency. So if we fixed bridges, bought trucks, could be say, we're going to buy your coffee, but we'll take away your elephant guns. See how you do. Stick to your side of the bargain, we'll buy your coffee, get it to C.A.R. and buy it off you. Can see it to big coffee firm as elephant friendly coffee. Some of the possibilities existing here.

44::50 AC & ES interview. Esteban Sarmiento -Research Associate at Dep't of Mammology at the Amer. Museum of Nat'l History. Mammal distribution. Born Buenos Aires, grew up in NJ. Gorilla distributed in east and west Africa. Congo river dividing line the E. and W. bends of Congo river, divided by 800 miles. The fact that the two groups are so closely linked genetically means it's possible there is a group here.

47:30 this is an area poorly explore. Were rumors and skulls allegedly out of this area.

47:55 AC: I thought it pretty unlikely to have unknown species in this day and age. Then I looked at all of you great scientists going on this .... ES: It's been an unanswered question since Lemarionelle, Belgian soldier, brought back some gorilla skulls from Bondo, 120 miles south of here. Something like that opens up the probability that the animals are still here.

48:45: And is it likely they are still here? that is what we came here to find out. Want to find out, at least you answer this question and you set it at rest. Looking at environment, doesn't look like it would support them now. Maybe in the past. Maybe crossed river at Bondo, but more likely, a hunter probably caught them on the other side ofUeli, but happened to have them on this side.

49:40 AC: If there are chimps, why not gorillas? .. ES: Gorilla is a very much larger animal, eats mostly herbaceous vegetation, prefer succulents. They also eat fruit if they can get it. Not as dependent on it. Chimpanzees made to crave fruit. Chimps faster to move to fruit. Gorillas slower, thick density of vegetation lacking here. But hey, always surprises. diet is lacking here.

50:55 AC: What about larger chimp? .. ES: that could have been another alternative. There is some rules of thumb that say that as you get further away from the equator, forms get bigger. Being 4 degrees away, we are getting towards the northern limits of chimp. Might expect them to bigger. But I guess once we've looked at the nest, looked at the evidence hard to say these animals are larger than your common chimpanzee. But it's a possibility. But not based on the skulls.

52:06 AC: How do you explain the chimp footprints here being longer than normal? .. ES: If! found footprints time and time again that were very large, I'd have to conclude it was a very large chimpanzee. Obviously, before we came here, some of the footprints evidence we were shown seemed to be made by a rather large animal, in fact out of the range of living chimpanzees, but now that we've looked at most of the area, most of the prints that were available to us, were mostly chimpanzee-sized. The one or two prints that had been cast prior to this, may be double imprints, or the type of prints where the animal is sliding or moving and the print is really enlarged, not the same size as the hand or the foot that made it. So sometimes these prints are difficult to read and they may appear larger or smaller. I've only saw two prints, and these were casted, not on the ground that were extraordinarily large.

53:25 AC: What about the feces? .. ES: there seems to be some rather large feces. It's a funny topic. We weighed one of the feces, it turned out to be 720 grams. In any book, a lot for any animal. Coincidentally, the nest of the feces where we collected it had a bit of a gorilla-like smell. Some of us thought it was very gorilla-like. Hard to be objective ~ith smell. Only one of this size. Diameter not unexpectedly big. Logic is, larger animal should have larger intestine, larger diameter. 5.8 centimeters not outside range.

55:15 AC: What's your assessment? ES: I hate for some guy to come here in two months and kill a gorilla and prove me wrong .... AC: What do you think of the forest? .. ES: very unique, at the edge of forest turning into woodland. Living at the edge. Have winter, dry season, summer, wet season. Consequently, high migration, higher diversity. Scenic value -dry planes with iron ore. Lunar landscape.

57:55 CB: I found two unknown ground nests. Was very fresh. One was very convincing -huge mattress, lot of leaves, very comfortable. Collected 50 hairs inside. Looks like gorilla nest, I have to say. Interesting, near raffia. Just 5 meters away was another nest much cruder as we saw before. Indicating something like a day nest. I think there was also many hairs inside. Collected 20, didn't do it systematically. But that exactly to answer the point of Esteban yesterday who was wondering if an animal in such a short amount of time could shed so many hairs and it seems to be the case that they can. At least, this good nest indicates that, if it is only a day nest. Some of these individuals like extremely comfortable day nests. That's for sure ... AC: It was very large? .. CB: A platform about 80 centimeters around, on the stem of this maron tree, with leaves, a real cushion. No hole, just a cushion. You could lay down, you won't feel the stems. It's very comfortable. That was a nice nest.

5355 -large feces, it was large. It's the only feces this size, and the diameter of the feces
is normal. 5515 I hate for some guy to come here and get a gorilla.

5815 - CB _looks like a gorilla nest 1 would have to say. That was a nice nest To 59:40

1:00:00 - CB and ES on nests .. .and through 10230 ...

1:04:09 - night roll at camp 1, try to get hyrax 10500 -quiet night, peepers. CT says it's a little after 9:00 p.m. 10530 -more...cicadas at two levels, occasional peeper. And through 10630 ... 10640 -moving.

1:07:00 - hyrax end. No. roll continues, more night stuff, fairly quiet .... no through 1:09:00

1:09:20 - hyrax good ...cough in middle -okay through 11030, building ...moving at end. *and there is another hyrax calling through at end...to 1120 -then mic. And shut down at 11140. Build hyrax section from this.

1: 1215 - night roll w/very distant hyrax -no for hyrax, but a good quiet night roll through to 1330. and on ...through 1400 .. .distant bird sometimes .. .mostly quiet night ... could be a night setter. and through 1515 ... distant hyrex start at 1520...and through 1600 ...CT says too much snoring, but 1 can't hear anything. Stops roll. 1625.

11630 - hyrax roll, mid distance, not as good as earlier.

11700 - hyrax close .. .still not as good as earlier, but good 1 :1720 -zip[, open, 1725,
good to 1745, hyrax stop ...more tent. build this.

11815 - night roll, with nice bird ... some talk follow, but possible bed use to build
something. Movement in brush at distance. This may be early morning. More birdy than earlier stuff. Some sense of camp stuff going on but pretty quiet. No roosters. Something
calling to side _ mid-distance hyrax? To 12040, then tent ...hyrax going good, but tent stuff through it _ no. 12130 ... good roll start here with distant bird. Nice inside tent section here .... 12300 ..... ¿¿ and on to 12330 ... and on to 12500. Build tent bed. Try to
include early leaf fall. 12550 _ distant hyrax begins and builds ... but pretty distant ... still good for bed above. And through 12730 ...hyrax out at 12745 ...mic. Shift ....roll continue through 12900 and on ...bird call at 13015 ... distant camp cough at 13055, good. And on through 13300. still very night feeling. Sometime stick so and in distance, camp rustle.

1 :35:38, another night cough from someone in camp. And roll on to 13600. 13625, bird.
Same bird again to 137:00. cougher at 13733. and roll continue to 13830 ... 13915, something callin repeatedly in distance ... good... and to 13950 ...then a response? .. more of same to 14000 ... yes, response ...and to 14020 ... and to 14100, with new cricket picking up nearby and adding voice. The new strange caller again at 14150, w/ response. To 14215 and on .. .and a lot of that going on through 1:43:25.

1 :43:30 -when the rooster crows at the break of dawn ... and again at 143:42, and more and more ... 14400, same, still with strange caller way in back. A very good rooster on mic. 14442, a little tent stuff. .. more rooster, 14450, a whoop call at mid-distance. Then rooster. More through 14530 ... CT shift in tent. 14544, rooster, whoop, distant tent zip -good. And on through 14700. good parts of this have no rooster. .. just some distant African caller, then close whooper, with a little bit of distant tent stirring stuff as camp begins to wake up a little ....hyrax distant at 14845 and on ...nice section ... and to 14945 ... 15145, coughs ... and on through 15315 ... hyrax at 15320, building pretty good, whooping, some talk through at 15400, but good. And to 15430 and on, hyrax out at 15435 ... roll on 15500 ... and 15600 ... and 15700 ... night getting more active ... other different calls occasional...and 15800 ... good snap at 15825" and on .. 15900, good kind of wow call at 15904 ... then more birds, thrash very nice around 15930 and on to 20000. and on to 20100. 20146 -CT move mic. 20200 roll continue, the slightly more active night stuff ... good. And on to 20400 ... good ... and on to 20500 ... snoring?.yes at 205 on to 20520, good ....and to 20600 ....definitely more active ....some camp rustle, new peepers occasional.. . and to 20700 .... out at 20720.

END DAT 5

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