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Interview 12:32 - 2:01:10 Play 12:32 - More
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Esteban Sarmiento  

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Bili Ape tracking and habitat  

Interview 12:32 - 2:01:10 Play 12:32 - More
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George Schaller  

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Bili Ape tracking and habitat  

NPR/NGS Radio Expeditions
9 Feb 2001

    Geography
  • DR Congo
    Orientale
    Locality
  • 36.0 km E of Bili; between the Uele and the Mbomou rivers
    Latitude/Longitude
  • 4.13333   25.48333
    Channels
  • Stereo
    Sampling Rate
  • 48kHz
    Bit Depth
  • 16-bit
    Recorders
    Microphones
  • Sennheiser MKH 30
  • Sennheiser MKH 40
    Accessories
    Equipment Note
  • Stereo=1; Decoded MS stereo

NPR/NGS RADIO EXPEDITIONS
Show: Africa Bili Apes
Log of DAT: 4
Engineer: Thompson
Date: February 9, 2001

ng =not good
ok= okay
g =good
vg =very good

(Misidentified at top of tape as DAT 3. This is DAT 4)

01:30-02:45 Quiet in forest, following ES. Birdy walk at 2:19

02:56 -04:30 AC eat berry sequence (better one later): We just stopped by a tree and Esteban said it was chimpanzee food and George had sampled it a few days ago .. .! was going to get you to sample it again, George .. .It's a hard, orange side berry ... thick husk, lots of seed, astringent pulp .. .looking for volunteers, not finding any.

04:30 Walk in woods, dry leaf rustle. Chop of machete on hard husk/shell

0:800 -12:00 Good walking and clearing. Still trying to get Alex to eat chimp food. Nice dry stuff at 9:00* (this may be very useful for illustration of dry conditions). A little tracker chatter after 9:00 ... on through 11 :38, some birds ...

11 :55 Entering thicker jungle.

12:30 ES and GS on leaves. It's used as bedding by the locals, roofing, drinking cups. Got a lot of uses ... showing you how he makes a roof out of it ... it' s a big tough leaf about two feet long and half a foot wide. Don't lean up against this tree; it's full of ants in it ...

14:20 ES talks with trackers in French*

14:25 ES: Chimpanzees eat those. We've really gotten confused with this, but it's a ??¬tasting plant. .. (guides chewing and laughing) ... you want to try one? GS: They're little fruits with about 3 seeds in it ... ES: you eat the stuff around the seeds ... GS: with a fleshy covering, the pericarple or whatever it's called ... it tastes sweet ... it's sticky ... (g) It's sticky, don't eat the seed, just suck on it briefly ... laughter ... It's not that bad, huh? .. AC: No, it's good. This stuff here, this is a little purple seed with a forest cream sauce. It tastes a little bit spicy, maybe like a kind of a yogurt. There are three of these things, pea-sized and kidney-shaped. There are three of them and they're in this red, cherry-sized fruit here ... You'd have to eat quiet a few to make a meal .. AC; You'd have to eat quiet a few, because you don't actually eat the nut, just the slimy covering. If I were a chimp, I'd think I'd like that. But you'd have to eat like 600 ... but you also eat the seeds. But they don't get digested. Itjust comes out in a big mass .. .

17:30 -18:00 Good forest walk.

18:30 -19:30 Guides whispering ... ES: "Okay, you want to see an old nest?" AC: "yes"
(a starter?)

21 :12 -25:50 (ng) ... this is basically a dried up stream that we're walking in now ... you can see where his big tail dragged ... Do you see that? The aardvark dug the hole here ...

22:02 (g) ... All this has been plowed up by red forest hogs. It looks like it's been tilled ... AC: this ground is wetter than it's been before, and darker soil. . dry red soil up on top and here you've got a lot of humus and moist ... AC: but it looks like a turned garden ... Pigs, red forest pigs ... they stick their snout in for things to eat ...

23:17 (g) ...yeah, that's the foot right there ... AC: of what? .. A chimp .. .I see his toe, his big toe was here. They have an opposable big toe and his other 4 are here and here's the sole of his foot ... you can only see three knuckles here ... these are the 3 ... That are the ten centimeters across ... (following interrupted by better-mic'd guide) ... one, two three, right across ... AC: how fresh is that print? . .It's fresh; there are no leaves on top. Maybe last night, yesterday. Usually when things are old, leaves fall in the forest and then you get stuff on top of it. A day at the most. You can tell it's pretty fresh. Those are the fingers, the hand like this. How big mine would be ... that's my print there, I just did it ... AC: I'm going to take a picture of it... Here's the foot, the sole of the foot, the big toe goes in because they basically walk like this on their foot. So here's the sole, the big, fat sole and the big toe going in here and the other four toes in here ...got to stop these guys before they stop the forest. Did you hear the hornbill? He's got some old nest to see. This is a fresh track, if we walk around it we can probably follow around it for a ways. Chimps are notoriously hard to follow because they can move a little bit on the tree and throw you off the trail.. .

26:20 -27:07 ES: Tom is the expert on the sounds the birds make and also the sounds the animals make and it took him a long while before, a couple of weeks, before he could figure out which animals were making each of the sounds. It's an area that's been so unexplored that we know very little about the animals. AC: this area here was unexplored. ES; It's pretty much unexplored. That means there was missionaries through it, but there really hasn't been any scientific expeditions through it. So sometimes the Belgians have animals that were sent back from the Congo, but there's never been a scientific expedition through this region. When we first got here, it took us at least a couple days to figure out our way around.

28:30 New nest sequence but not. No. ES: what do you think, George, it can't be more than two days old. GS: Aw. No, it's much older than that. ES: you think? GS: Yeah, a couple weeks ... ES: Let's get a good look at it. Oh, I thought they were pointing at. This is an old nest. It's at a good angle ... GS: You sit in the crotch of a tree and break in the branches and push them under your foot ...

29:50 ES: I thought they said there was a new nest around here. GS: You want to see an easier nest, on the ground, where you don't have to climb. AC: Well, what is that, 20 feet up? ES: More than that. This is old, not worth looking at anyway. I thought they said it was a new nest ... GS: Well, somewhere around there's a new nest because those tracks aren't more than a week old ...

30:24 AC: This is it? It doesn't look like very much ... GS: Yeah, but you don't need very much to sleep one night. ES: There's a new one here. There's a newer one here, I think. GS; (ok -loud plant noises and off-mic speech) All you do is find a spot with a lot of big -leaf plants and squat ground, reach out, grab an armful of stems, push them under your feet, look around, maybe face the other direction, pull it in, in 30 seconds to a minute, you've got a decent nest. I'm not very good at this, but that's how it's done. SC: have you ever slept in one? GS: No need to, I have air mattresses. AC: but you are very good at building one, you pulled it together quickly.

31 :42 (g -lots of good plant tearing) Obviously this is going to be very wet here during the rainy session, so I don't think they nest down here. Actually, there was a feeding site for berries over there where the fellow, the chimp who passed ate, but there's also ... ES: there's some old nest there that they want to show you ... GS: they also eat the stem of this big-leafed plant. What they do is they bite it, rip it is open, and then they eat the tender piece. It's not good to eat for you to eat particularly ... ES, AC: It's got some liquid ... GS: but it's a very good vegetable food. And so you see these tall, 5,6 foot stems sort of threaded to get at the pith (?).

33:30 GS: I haven't been to this site, actually ... ES: You haven't been here? ... GS Not to this site. This nest is different. They've been breaking in some of the rafia palm, very ??? .. ES: and they are actually eating it too, pick it up. I guess it's an old one though. I think I collected this one actually ... guides ... AC: Now would you find the dung in these nests? ... GS: Oh yeah, the chimps usually have one pile of dung at the edge, except that within an hour of dawn, the dung beetles come and start taking it away. But you find the hairs of the chimps in the nest. Ifwe find the fresh nest we'll show you. Otherwise ... GS: The hairs, Esteban collects them for DNA analysis and you'd be able to tell, not only if it' s chimp or something else, but if it's the same individual that's been making nests, or how many individuals are involved ... ES: usually feces are easier, but here they are hard to get. We prefer feces, hair's hard to get. George is also collecting feces for parasites, which the zoo is involved with. I think the WCS found the Nile virus right ... GS: primates in Africa have become extraordinarily important because the chimps are known to have Ebola virus, the AIDS virus, so there are big health service checks through the primate populations ...ES: There are also parasites and disease are important for us to know about. You know about the virus thing though, in New York. It was the zoo that diagnosed ...

36:30 Walking through the forest. Great sound.* GS: The chimps really like this, they tear it apart. It¿s a related species to what we saw the nest make out of. It¿s like celery. Chimps like it, gorillas like it....AC: And it¿s okay for me to eat?...GS: oh, yeah, nothings going to happen to you. You can¿t eat a lot of he same thing, that¿s the trick.... AC: it¿s actually got a very pleasing flavor, juicy... GS: help yourself... ES: The trick is not to eat a lot of the same thing...

37:50 GS: What happens with those nest sites is that chimps obviously like certain spots. So if there are a couple of nests, the chimps will come back again. So you may find nest of two or 3 diff. ages in one spot.

38:22 GS: You wander through and want to find, how many ground nests, how many tree nests. And out of 100 nests, you¿ll find about 20 on the ground in this region which is an unusually high number. Chimps rarely rest on the ground. Why they do, I have no idea. It may be simply cultural. In other river-rind forests where this big-leaf plant is scarce, you don¿t find many ground nests, so they obviously like this plant. And chimps of many sizes make these ground nests. It¿s not just that big males can¿t climb trees and have to nest on the ground. Sometimes quite small animal obviously nests on the ground.

39:17 ES: it seems certain times of the year they seem to make ground nests more than the others. You seem to find tree nests in a higher proportion in the wet season. This is sort of like, you have to be here all year round to know this for sure.

39:45 GS: The problem is, we¿ve made these guys so conscious of ground nests, they never much thought about it before.... ES: Where you were at before was the Digbi, right?... GS: that has a fairly high number (fades) of tree nests... ES: but you don¿t have the big-leafed plants... ES: It seems like a thing that the same animals are switching between a tree and ground nests. But once we do the genetic analysis, we¿ll be sure that¿s the case... when we first came here there was still water in some of these places. Really dry now...AC: But the ground is so much different than what we walked though to get here. ES: Yeah, you took geology. I was going to say, everything erodes from uphill to the downhill. So a lot of the topsoil, the leaves and stuff come down here when it¿s raining. And this bottom gets built up. I guess in time, this place will look like those deposits you find in coal in...

41:22 GS: The thing is, you find these nests on the ground or in the trees, and you can¿t tell if it was made by a chimp or a gorilla or an orangutan. All make the same nests. Also, the Malayan sun bear makes a nest that looks identical to an ape nest except the sure way to tell it, if you look at the tree trunk and there are claw marks going up. The basic principle of anybody who wants to make a nest in a tree has to be fairly similar...

42:10 Talking with guides... AC gets reprimanded by CT.

42:37 GS: No elephants down here. ES: Not any more ...

43:20 Looking at chimp track...with guides.

43:33 AC: how big is the animal that made that print? ES: It's hard to tell, bt my estimate would be a 60 kg animal. .. GS Big adult chimp. It's got quite a big foot, so it's probably an adult male. AC: But it's not an extraordinarily big chimp? .. GS: No, not that one. Except some of feet for chimps here are big, and knuckle prints too. We've tried for over two weeks and not seen one. ES: Have you seen a big knuckle print. Have you actually, physically seen and measured a big print? ... GS: Yeah ... ES: I haven't actually, seen a big print or a big knuckle, one of these 17 centimeters across ones... GS: Well, let me see what I have here in my notes ... ES: I've seen nothing more than 10 cm across ... GS: I've got, yeah, I've got a knuckle print here, 10.5 cm...ES: that's biggest I've seen also ...

44:45 AC: When was that and where did you get it? ...GS: Jan 29t\ in one of these soft soil, river-rind forests. But Carl Lemond has gotten some that are larger ... ES: He has some that are 14 cm that's really outside the range of what you'd expect a chimpanzee to be. However, it would have been more believable had I taken the ... GS: 15 minutes ago we saw... ES: that one 3 across ... GS: One which had only 3 knuckles showing instead of the 4th one and that was 10 cm, so add a knuckle it would have been 11 Yz, 12 anyway... AC: and that's big? ... ES: that's big, totally ...
GS; that's quite a big chimp. But some of these chimps get to be quite big. Some of these males. What ... ES; the big ones are zoo animals ... GS: 70 kilos. Those are big animals ... ES: But the print of the foot he has there is just too big to be a chimpanzee. I mean, you've seen that foot. I must of have measured 2 or 300 chimpanzee feet, I've never seen anything that big. So if it's a chimp, it's out of the range. It also has a morphology that's wrong for a chimp. But, it's very difficult to tell the shape, on soil like this it'll be deformed ...

46: 18 GS: you have to really check to make sure that there isn't one print on top of another. .. ES: And you're just looking at a plaster cast. On soil that's giving this degree of reproduction, it's very difficult to ... GS: See, a large chimp can make a print, the heel is here. The smaller chimp follows and steps basically in this, but his heel is farther back, which makes it look like a huge animal .. ES: I'm sure he has prints on the base of his shoes, he has some kind of pattern, but this doesn't reproduce it that well, do you notice? So had they be making prints on soil that reproduce the pattern real well. But on soil like this, it's difficult.

47:10 AC: you're saying .. .I saw the cast of that footprint, but you are saying that you are a very experienced scientist looking at these things and GS certainly is ... GS: Well, I'm saying there are other options. It may be a 100% correct, but because there are other options. Since there is very little actual evidence, you are thinking of other explanations as well, until something is proved one way or another. .. ES: It's sort of like people send me a cast of Big Foot. You say, okay, you believe this is possible, but once you start
searching through things you say, well, this is unlikely and try to find other explanations for why that foot could have been that big or made or by what.

48:06 AC: Okay, so how do you explain the feces that's 120 grams? .. ES: I can't explain that. He ate a lot ... GS: I haven't measured the variable output of people, but if you for whatever reason, chimp hasn't gone for 3 days, and suddenly goes, that's not, for a big animal, that much ... ES: It's still a lot though, it is a lot. I think you have to take all the evidence together and see what it's pointing to ... GS: The only proof you are going to get is if you get a nice photo of one of the big creatures ...

49:00-49:10 Ambi of setting...

49:55 Stopdown

51:50 ES: I guess there's a nest up there. It's about 8,10 meters up ... AC: What is it? .. ES: It's a tree nest, a new nest, a day or two old. You can tell, when the tree branches are broken back, and if it's a sizeable branch, you're confident that it's a fairly strong animal that's doing it. It's not a squirrel or any other small arboreal animal.

52:17 ES: It seems a little bit high. Wait ... talks with guides ... AC: Is that 2 nests or I? ES: It looks like he built a new nest and then moved over to that one and over there there seems to be another one. If you look over there. They're really up there. We got, you see these George, these seem fairly new, and there's one over there. If you stand here you can see it. I'm not taking notes today, so I'm relying on you ... GS: oh yeah, it looks like one and other one ... trying to spot the nests ... GS: Well there's 3 of them in a row at the top ... See how biases easily develop. These chaps are searching for ground nests and the trees are full of them. I've already got 3 others ... ES: those are old or young?. GS: all old ... ES: but these don't look like they're old. They're new ...

54:00 AC: those must be 60 feet up ... ES: yeah, 15, 20 meters ... AC: isn't that pretty high? .. ES: Yeah, they like to be high ... guides talking ... AC: did he saw he's going to climb up there? .. ES: he's going to climb up there, just for your enjoyment... GS: It's not worth it ... ES: this one looks pretty fresh, doesn't it... GS: it's hard to tell because the bottom branches aren't broken off... ES: there are some broken in that one I was looking at. You going to take these down? I can trust your notes? See, we're sort of off chimpanzee duty.

55:23 AC: because you've been on chimpanzee duty for the past 2 weeks ... ES: Three weeks. The first 2 weeks, went to all the sites, collected nests and feces. So now, we came to some kind of conclusion, or we think we have enough data to came to a conclusion ... GS: A tentative conclusion ... AC: Is there any other kind for a scientist? .. GS: You can't prove absence. If you don't find it, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist ... ES: But you can explain the evidence to the best of your ability ...

56:25 AC: So if these nests are relatively fresh and these nests are relatively fresh, within a day, there're got to be chimps around here ... ES: there are chimps around here. We hope to hear them one night ... GS: look how thick the undergrowth is here. A chimp hears us like a herd of elephants coming though, it quietly walks off. Unless you hear them calling somewhere, it's very hard to know they're right nearby. And it you're hunted, you learn to be quiet ... ES: One of the things that hasn't been emphasized enough is the speed of a chimpanzee on the ground in a forest. He basically tucks and can move through very small holes, very quickly. You could almost outrun a gorilla...but a chimpanzee ... GS: you try to outrun a gorilla. You try it some time... ES: Tried a couple times. Uphill once I beat one, he couldn't catch me, or he stopped. AC: he let you think you could beat him ... ES: But chimps are fast, as fast a dog will run you down. I think Gazateleki measured their speed, 30 miles something an hour, so it's a fast animal, and quiet, too. Sometimes it can stay perfectly still behind the trunk, looking at you, like ...

58:06 GS: Animals adapt very quickly to being hunted. They learn to keep out of sight and keep quiet. The monkey in this area for example are very shy, which means they're hunted. The people here hunt monkeys I suspect with crossbow, poisoned arrows because shotgun shells are too expensive. They cost about a dollar a piece and local people can't afford that. Nonetheless, all the wildlife knows to stay out of the way.

58:47 AC: What are they saying? What are they talking about? ES: I can't understand Azanti. We communicate in French ...

59:25 Speaking in French with guides ... ES: they were talking about the way the chimpanzee was moving, the way it came through. Whether he had gone around or come straight through and Key said he'd come straight through ...

1:00:10 AC: How do they know? ES: What you do is look at the trail the animal actually makes, sometimes a broken branch, or something he leaves behind. Especially when you look at it at his level, something he might have hit with his body, actually pretty much looks like a path he came through from where you are standing ... AC: So can we track him? ES: Me and Key once, we tracked him for about half-a-mile, but once they move up a tree, it's very difficult. The animal can move up a tree, move to a different tree and come down, sort of like if you're a criminal in a movie, it's like crossing a stream and losing the dogs...

1:01 :35 Making plans with the trackers

1 :03: 18 Guides provide pronouncers for their names: Kitikawow. Kangonyese. PULL FOR EDIT.

1:04: 10-1:06:30 Hacking through forest, snaps, machete, guides talking, underbrush, good bed ... *

1:12:37 AC: So we're in the forest bottom. We're following the two trackers who are trying to find the chimp's trail. Esteban and George are behind us, and the trackers are out ahead... this is pretty thick vegetation here. Some of it is grabbing and snatching at us. The bottom's very damp. Not muddy, but very damp. Rich soil. Every now and then, these trackers run into a patch of stinging insects.

1: 13 :50 Very loud vegetation, good chopping

1: 14:53 AC: Just a patch of sunlight here, but mostly we're in deep shadow.

1: 16:30 Chop and move sequence ... (ES shirt -a sparkly applique for a NJ strip club)

1 :18:50 GS: That's a nice nest ... ES: But an old one ... Giving insecticide to tracker. .. GS: Now they are going to kill elephants so they can buy insecticide in the C.A.R.

1:21:00 -1:21 :50 Great chopping.

1:23:50 AC: we've split up into two different groups now. We're following in one and one thing I've noticed is that the bottom is getting drier. It's not as wet here on the ground as it was.

1:24:52 AC: We're checking each other for ants right now because Chuck Thompson, Charles Thompson who's here with me has a whole back full of them. Passing under something. And I guess they sting.

1:25:30 AC: Walking through this, we're climbing over fallen logs, a lot of vines and roots, but you also have to look up because there are all these vines and branches dangling everywhere so we just kind of squeeze through and make our way.

1:27:00 -1 :30:15 Forest walk and chop bed. Birds in back.

1:30:35 AC: In places it is a little more open, it is right here. The bottom is still very shifty, it's easy to misstep and stumble. A lot of roots. It does seem a little bit more open here...And now our tracker's found a nest ... tracker ...There's a nest about 30 feet up, but the leaves are all brown and already Dr. Schaller has explained to me that if it's fresh, they should be all green ... tracker ...

1:31 :40 GS: sometimes they're hard to spot. I walked right underneath it. That's a real old one. All the leaves are dead and dry. How high would you estimate that one ... AC; I'd guess 30 ft ... GS; More than that, probably 40 ... AC; It sure looks to be an area where they come build their nests. Maybe not this week, but. .. GS; If you figure, 4 chimps roaming around, they build a nest every night, at least one nest, or sometimes they build a day nest and you can't tell it for sure from a night nest just looking at it from the bottom. 10 days, 4 chimps, there'd be 40 nests in an area. And they probably travel quite a bit looking for fruit trees. At least, I haven't seen much ground feeding. They eat some of these red berries, they thread some of this aframoem stem and eat it, but most of it is fruit judging from the droppings ... AC; there just doesn't look to be that much here to eat ... GS; No, there's not that much here at ground level in the valley. They go out to the edge of the savanna's and eat those orange-sized hard fruit, and there's this aframoem fruit which comes out of the ground which tastes very good and they break it open and a few others. But most of their food is up high in those emergent forest trees ... AC: I see flowers on this tree where this nest is. About another 10 feet up ... GS; that's either a parasite or a vine ... AC: Something fruiting up there. GS: Those are young leaves think. Let me get my glasses out. What do you see? .. AC: I think you're right, they're just a different color. They're pink ... GS: You often have leaves that are colored differently, to attract insects ...

1 :34:45 GS: Often when you have one nest, you have others scattered about. One of the earlier sites we saw was at least two or three different ages of nest.

1 :35:04 AC: I haven't described these nests yet. They're about 4 or 5 feet across and pretty round, looks like a little mattress made of leaves, that's all ... GS: That's what it is. You find a decent fork where there are springy branches that you can break in that don't snap off-you want them to stay attached. You put them on top of each other, put your feet down, sit on it. And you have a little mattress ... AC: A little springy kind of thing with leaves on it ... GS: the larger ones, if we find one near ground, you can climb up and sit very comfortably in. You just don't' want to sleep walk ...

1:36:05 Stopdown

1 :36:25 ES: There's a fresh feeding site. I guess you can see how they broke up the pit ... GS: See all the bark of this afromomeun's been stripped off so they can it the pit. .. AC: How old is it? .. GS & ES: It's new ... ES: This one with the rings here is palisota, the feeding's relatively fresh and I guess they ate a good end of that, right? Must have been as tall as this one, that's probably a good two feet that they stripped off. Or is that the machete one? .. AC: when you say it's new, do you mean this morning? .. ES: Maybe this morning, maybe last night, because you can see how much there is here. All this they spent, they broke these things off. And again, this is palisota. You got that, George ... ES: they broke this outer layer to get to the pit inside. This is what George was showing you before. They just strip this and there's the remains of them doing this ... GS: I think you should use your teeth ... ES: You want me to use my teeth? .. GS: Demonstrate correctly ... ES: I think they probably use their fingers, too. Let me just break it off. You want a piece? Another taste tester. .. AC: Delicious. I'm going to take a picture of this...

1 :38:07 ES: You can tell the creatures sat here for quite a time, ,and I'm just going to look for any feces or hair. .. ES: this is probably where he sat at. And if we look around, if we're lucky, we might find some hairs. We'd have to be lucky though ....because if they stay here for a short time, if they don't defecate, it's usually hard to find hairs. If they defecate, they usually use leaves to pull and sometimes they use hair on the leaves and sometimes it can be more difficult to find hair. .. AC: If the chimp had defecated here, would you smell it, could you know it? .. ES: I usually could smell it, especially something this fresh would be, yes, it would be as good as any men's room that doesn't use deodorant. The big mint ... ES: That's a pretty good idea of how they strip it, if you
just compare. He just stripped the leave and took some of the cortex of that plant off to
get to the pith inside.

1:40:05 Stopdown

1 :40:28 Hacking through underbrush with ES talking in bkgnd (about the tracker?) ...

1 :42: 1 0 Stopdown

1 :42:22 ES: What are they saying? ... GS: It's not what they're saying that's important, but what they are seeing ... ES: What are they seeing? Do you think it's this woman nesting here ... GS: we'll see,. She's got some feces for us ... ES: Does she? ... AC: how fresh is this? ... GS: probably last night. Let me check the feces ... AC: you've got feces here ... ES: we've got all this stuff. Do you want to take notes George, or should I take notes? .. discussing what do with feces ... GS: Let me get a rough measure of this nest. .. ES: You can't really see a seat in that one, can you? ... ES; Got about a meter 10... ES: You're gonna take this down George? ... GS: Just a second ... ES: We're going to look for hairs, okay? And after that, we're going to collect the feces. Sometimes when the animal sits here, he presses the leaves, and it leaves a very characteristic bowl or seat and that gives you the size of the animal. If he's real heavy. This animal seems to be lighter, so a lot of these leaves spring back. It's not as tightly ironed as it would be with a heavier animal

1 :44:55 ES: This doesn't look like yesterday's nest, does it, George? .. GS: Let me look ... ES: there's hair here ... GS: Well, you collect them, I don't want them ... GS: I have a bag if you want one ... ES: No, no, I have paper because that's what you ... GS; that's what I mean, I've a paper bag ... ES; Okay, I did it wrong. Let's try to get as many as possible. There's one there and two there. Do you see that one balancing? There's another one right there ... AC: They're very fine hair. They're just as fine as human hairs almost... ES: You can see the root. Do you see that little dot? ... Guide: C'est ici ... ES; yeah, he's got one ... AC; They are black and about two inches long ... ES: You can see the root, this little root. That has a lot of the DNA in it. .. GS: he probably sits there scratching himself when he wakes up.

1 :46:30 AC: Now, does anyone have a plastic bag for the feces? ... ES & GS: yeah, yes ... GS: Oh yeah, we're all prepared ...

1:46:50 Collecting the feces ...

1 :46:47 AC: I've heard of a needle in a haystack, but a hair in a leaf pile is a new one ... ES: with these leaves, they give you good contrast. It's actually one of the easiest places
I've found hair on. You say so too, George ... GS: Usually I don't bother. .. ES: Another one there, and there ... ES: Is that a real hair? Yeah ...

1 :48:55 ES; We just found a gold mine of hair. .. GS: Yeah, I expect to find a bunch of naked chimps ... AC: Esteban, it's worked out for you to go out with a journalist ... ES: Yeah, it's a red light district. I've got my lucky shirt on, sure to see them naked ... AC; Is that moisture chimp pee? .. GS: test it with your finger... more hair gathering ...

1 :50:15 ES: I guess it's like the leaves falling off the trees. In the dry season they lose their hair ... GS: a lot of them don't have roots ... ES: I was checking that out ... you have another there, if we can pick that up. It's right there on that leaf.. See that leaf. Now you've got it. A couple more we think, then we quit? Let's do a couple more ... GS: I don't know how many you have with roots. The rest are pretty useless ... ES: I know ... GS: that ones got a nice root ... ES: I guess there's another one up here, bt I'll look for it later. I just want one more sure one then I'm happy. That's good, then you. .. GS : You guys want a picture of yourselves in a chimp nest ... ES: I think I've got a good one here, George, you want to look for yourself. .. GS: that's more than enough for what you need...

1 :52:50 Guides: talking about chimpanzee or gorillas ... GS: they never knew about gorillas until you guys came here and told them to look for. .. ES: no, Carl came here. I like to ask him the questions. Here. I love that question. Let's get a ...

1 :53:40 AC: tell me what you guys are doing here? You've got this little blue kit ... ES: this is just my water bottle. I usually carry a plastic bag ... AC: Jeez, I thought you were going to ... ES: We are going to collect the dung, but I have to find my bag. Do you have a ... GS: It's a portable oserizer ... ES: Do you have a plastic bag? .. GS: Yeah, I have a plastic bag. Any good scientist has a pocket full of plastic bags ... ES; I do have one. I'll use that one actually ... GS; oh, c'mon, that's the five kilo ... ES: well, we were expecting a big ...

1:54:30 ES: Let's get a diameter lead in, George ... GS: Well, the chimp has defecated at the edge of the nest. Most of it is squashed. This does not look like last nights ... ES: No, it looks two days old, at least. .. GS: Give it the smell test and see. No, it's not that fresh ... ES; What do you say, it's this way? .. GS: That's what I say, it's difficult to do it both ways ... ES: I think it's this way, the other way would be a lie. That's 5-0 ... AC: so you're measuring the width to figure out how big the anus of this animal is? .. ES: Basically. That would be a 5, so go from 5 to 5 eighths ... GS: and it's full of big seeds ... EG: we've seen that seed before. It's the one that you chewed on.

1:55:42 AC: Is this proper scientific method? You are picking it up with leaves ... ES: I don't want to get my hands on it. Basically if you get hands on it, you get your DNA on it. It has some of the seeds that you actually ate today ... AC; Dr. Schaller would be explaining what he's doing, but he's got his pen in his teeth ... GS: I am simply picking up some feces with my tweezers to save them to have our veterinarians at the WCS see what kinds of parasites are present in these animals ... AC: And you put it in a little ... GS: I put it in the 10% formulin vial. That's enough to preserve it ... AC; just a little plastic jar you're carrying with you. GS; They are. We have a small project in which we are checking the internal parasites of all the apes here in Africa. So, given the diseases the apes have, you don't really want to fondle feces too much, so we use tools to pick it up ... AC: well, you're using forceps and ES's using an old leaf... GS: Well, I'm modem ... ES; And I'm primitive. It's a lot quicker in a case like. Get that one, that big piece there ... GS; That's a beauty ... ES: That's the last one. We don't need them all.

1 :57:35 AC: since size of the feces is a big thing here, how does this strike you? ES: It's not big enough for male gorillas, I'll tell you ... GS; That depends on age ... GS: An adult male ... GS: But the shape is so completely different that you can't. I saw that from the original videos. The feces simply don't resemble gorilla feces. Which, no matter what they eat are much more characteristic. This chimp here has been moving along. Eating fibers quite a bit, but these don't show up in these feces. These are all fruit. Now, this seed, is this definitely ... ES; Check if it has flat side. If it has a flat side, it's the same one. If it's all round, it's not the same one ... GS; doesn't look the same ... ES: then it's not the same one. Some of them in there were, though. Some of them have a flat side ... GS: This one has a flat side, and this does not, and this one has a different color, unless it bleaches ... discussing seed shapes, which fruit.. .ES: We've seen it before in the feces, looks light hazel nut.

1 :59:40 ES: How old do you think? GS: A couple of days, certainly not last nights. AC: Well, you did pretty good, you guys can't be too disappointed ... GS: It's a beautiful nest, and it's got feces in it... ES: No, we're not disappointed ... GS: beautiful iridescent dung beetles that come in, but they haven't gotten here yet for some reason ... ES: Tom was showing them last night how the spiders' eyes shine. If you come here at night you'll see a lot of the phosphorus deposited in the swamp glowing back

2:00:16 Using GPS ...

2:01:30 Stopdown --End

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