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Chip Stanish  

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Ancient civilizations of Peru  

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NPR/NGS Radio Expeditions
13 Nov 2001

    Geography
  • Peru
    Puno
    Locality
  • Near Asillo
    Latitude/Longitude
  • -14.7869444   -70.3538889
    Recording TimeCode
  • :00 - 1:15:29
    Channels
  • Stereo
    Sampling Rate
  • 48kHz
    Bit Depth
  • 16-bit
    Recorders
  • SONY TCD-D8
    Microphones
    Accessories
    Equipment Note
  • Decoded MS Stereo

NPR/NGS RADIO EXPEDITIONS
Show: Peru
Log of DAT #: 7
Engineer: Leo del Aguila
Date: November 13, 2001

ng = not good
ok = okay
g = good
vg = very good

0:06 AC
Okay, so where¿what¿s our elevation again?

0:08 CS
Yeah, we started around 3950 meters about, on that river bed, and we¿re going to work our way up to probably like 4025-75 meters in elevation. Doesn¿t seem like a lot but you feel it.

0:23 AC
It seems like a lot. What is that in feet?

0:26 CS
Oh, that would be ah, 12¿that would be around 13 thousand and some feet.

0:33 AC
Okay. It feels like something.

0:35 CS
Yeah. (laughs) Just you gotta go, the ah, the people here are really smart. When I was a younger guy working they, they¿d always say, ¿you know, you¿re walking like a gringo. You walk real fast, then you get tired and you rest. And you gotta do it like us. You just pick your pace and you go and you never stop. If your pace is really slow that¿s fine. But just pick your pace.¿ I still stop though.
[walking, breathing]
(1:16) You can already see some little indications of ah, people were living here. There¿s bits and pieces of ah, pottery and stone tools. Not real dense but there¿s some stuff here.

2:02-2:08: FX: small rock falling down the hillside.

2:13 FX good bird chirping.

2:25-2:30 heavy breathing.

2:32 Leo
How¿re you feeling?

2:34 AC
I¿m ah, I¿m winded. I¿m winded and we haven¿t come very far. [breathing hard] The elevation here¿s about 13,000 feet and it¿s not really especially steep, but it¿s 13,000 feet¿.Okay.

3:19 CS
These are all original walls, going up. They were both agricultural and defensive we believe. And they¿re all still nice and intact.

3:31 AC
And are you getting a are you getting a kind of sense of the date of this community?

3:40 CS
Yeah I think we¿re looking at ah, ah from the latest date the 15th century AD and I suspect this is going to go back to around 500AD. That¿s my feel from the ah, from the little bit of pottery I¿ve seen and the architecture that we¿re going to have.

3:59 AC
Okay.

4:00-6:05 ambi. Occasional bird chirping in the background. Boots trudging up the hill. Occasional breathing sounds. Occasional sound of a plastic bag or something similar rustling.

6:06 CS
You can see small agricultural and soil control terracing all the way up. There¿s an old corral there.

6:15 AC
It goes all the way up to the face of rock up there.

6:17 CS
Yup.

6:18 AC
And even above it. Even in the places where there¿s bare rock, down the face of that hill, in between the faces of bare rock they¿ve done terracing.

6:31 CS
Every inch of ground that can be cultivated is cultivated, it¿s so valuable here. And that¿s, those are very old terraces, these are 500 years or more old.

6:55 walking ambi.

7:13, 7:27, 7:43, 7:58 FX rooster crowing far away.

7:51 AC
Is that llama?

7:54-8:24 truck going by a little ways off.

8:15 CS
Yeah, I didn¿t know they would be this high, sorry. Never been here.

8:19 AC
This is where they are.

8:20 CS
Yup¿What we¿ll actually, well, we¿re going to hit some houses, structures probably. I mean, every other site that I¿ve seen like this has houses.

8:38 AC
What about that little thing way up on top there Chip, way up on top of the hill, that¿s a little structure, I can see it must be stone?

8:45 CS
That¿s an, that¿s a, um, they call them capillas, there¿s a shrine, and it¿s probably next to another tropa, ¿cause there¿s tropas on the top as well. And that would be used today for, for, for religious ceremonies. People make pilgrimages up there.

9:04 AC
Still today?

9:05 CS
Oh yeah, yeah. And you¿ll find, if we were to go on top there we¿d find the remains of um, modern rituals, which would be broken glass and ah, other offerings that we would call trinkets but they¿re really not, they¿re little tiny toy images of things that have a particular meaning to the, [rooster call] for these pagos to the earth.

9:30 AC
Okay.

9:41 stopdown.

10:16 tape resumes. Ambi. Walking, breathing.

10:48-11:30 Ambi. sheep bahhing and people walking, breathing.

11:30 Leo
I¿m on top of the mountain. Well, I¿m exaggerating. I¿m half-way up the mountain. And ah, I got up here ahead of everybody and ah, I¿m waiting for them to catch up with me. I¿m actually at the base of¿whew, sorry, I¿m speaking right into, let me get more in the middle. I¿m on the base of some structure, structures actually, it looks like. Pre-colombian. Anyway, I¿m waiting for these old geezers to arrive here. I¿m adjusting my stuff anyway. So this, I am in fact rolling. Good thing. So here I am. I¿ll keep going for a little while.

12:38-17:41 ambi, not much noise. Occasional bird sounds.

13:10 FX fly buzzing by fast.

13:29, 15:20, 15:33, 16:08 sheep bahs.

14:59 kid¿s voice.

15:40 men¿s voices in English.

17:42 stopdown.
18:13 restart.

18:14 CS
(fading up into audio range) ¿would be here. This has been hand, this has been hand-shaped. There¿s something up here; we¿ve got to find it. There¿s a temple or a big ritual construction. And during the Pukara period, or maybe even earlier, Coluyu period, they made them as well, it¿s up here. The problem is they tend to be really, there¿s only one of them, they¿re real small, unlike Pukara, which were massive. But it¿s here. Now the question is do we find it today, it¿s hard to say. It might take systematic research. Literally it would take us probably 3 days to cover this area properly. Or it could be under one of these, one of these buildings. But eventually we¿ll find it. But this is the kind of stuff that we just love because reconnaissance tells you, you know, it¿s here somewhere. You have the pottery, now you even have evidence of the architecture.

Carolyn and Leo and Ned figure out how to get out of shots.

19:31 AC
Alright so we¿ve approached another one of these mud-brick structures on the, on the side of this hill. And right in front of it we¿ve found a stone slab. And it means a lot to Dr. Stanish. Chip?

19:47 CS
Yeah. Yeah, at the site of Pukara which was the main center of the time period at 200BC to around 200-300AD we saw these, they had these temples and these sunken courts. And in these temples they had these large stone slabs that were shaped and they put them around a court. So here we¿re coming up and as we were walking up I started to find some pottery that was Pukara period in date. And I could tell not by the decoration, because there wasn¿t any, but by the by the temper or the materials they put into the pottery to manufacture it. So I knew that we had a site that dated to around the Pukara period, which is exciting. And it¿s on a high hill, and that¿s interesting because most of the Pukara sites tend to be low. So as I¿m walking up I¿m finding more, more of this pottery, and viola, here we have a nice big slab. Now, what could that slab be? The slab is shaped by human hands, it¿s not natural this way.

20:43 AC
It¿s four feet long, maybe 2 and a half feet across. And ah, probably 6 inches thick.

20:50 CS
And it¿s virtually identical to what you see at Pukara. So what that says to us is ¿okay, there¿s something here.¿ Not only do we have the pottery, which we know can date to the site, but we also have this, at least one block, that comes from a temple, that probably comes from a temple that looks just like the slabs we get at Pukara. And we¿ve discovered on many other sites in the last several years, isolated temples on low hills, precisely where we¿re at right now, that had a sunken court. They tended to be small though. So we might be finding a nice Pukara center here. A small one, a minor center but a very, very important piece in the theory that I have about access to the Eastern forest because again we¿re on the road. And the road is on the way to the forest and if we have a Pukara site that¿s linking up with the other Pukara sites in a line we have very very good evidence for trade down into the forest.

21:46 AC
Tell me what it is, ah, if we could do this now, if we could just take a moment to do it. What is your theory about the importance of sites like this and how these societies were developing and seeming to me anyway developing incredibly rapidly.

22:03 CS
Exactly. That¿s a really good observation: rapidly. If you look at the entire South America, there¿s really only three places in all of South America where pristine or complex civilizations developed on their own. One¿s on the north coast in Peru, one¿s up in Wari in Ayacucho, we saw the site of Piciacta, and the other¿s here in the Titicaca basin. It didn¿t develop in the forest; it didn¿t develop anywhere else down here. The question is why did it develop up in the altiplano in the Titicaca basin. And one theory that is very popular among archaeologists, particularly people like me who have an economic anthropological bent is that access to trade, the ability to create huge amounts of wealth through these trade routes is one of the factors in the development of complex society or civilization. So, having said that, I¿m now in the Titicaca basin and I¿ve studied it and I¿ve documented these complex societies as has many of my colleagues. But now we want to see let¿s test that model. If indeed trade is important in the development of complex civilizations in the ancient world, then we will find trade routes to the eastern slopes for all these valuable commodities during at least Pukara times when that was a complex society.

23:20 AC
This was before the time of the Inca.

23:23 CS
Well before the Inca. We¿re again talking 200BC to 2-300AD and the Inca elaborated on that to a great extent. But what I¿m concerned about is the development of the first civilizations. Why the first? It was so difficult, it took, because people have been fully modern for at least 50,000 years, probably an awful lot longer but states only developed in a particular moment in time.

23:46 AC
So you¿re finding here the evidence of how people went from being kinship groups and clans, living in the forest and the highland into organized societies and indeed what we call civilization.

23:58 CS
Yeah, exactly. And that¿s what we¿re trying to test. And that¿s really big question, the holy grail of archaeology is to explain why civilization first developed, states first developed. And this is just an itty-bitty tiny small part of that big broad anthropological effort. And we¿re going to test this model. We say trade looks important, we¿ve looked at other places around the world. And if indeed it is, we can make a nice scientific statement that¿s testable. We should find strings of sites dating to that time period where the states first developed in the Titicaca basin. We should find strings of sites into the forest. And this is one little itty-bitty piece in that very large puzzle.

25:08 AC
What kind of notes are you making?

25:10 CS
Okay, what I¿m doing is I¿m actually taking photographs¿excuse me I have a pen in my mouth¿I¿m taking photographs of everything we find. And then I¿m taking a GPS location, global positioning system, and it¿ll give us right down to the meter where we are in the planet.

25:26 AC
And that¿s all for this slab.

25:28 CS
That¿s just for this slab, yeah. And then I¿m just writing down the number of the photograph on my rolls here.

Alex and Leo talking, Leo notes that the slab makes a great foot rest.

26:09 AC
Chip, look at this. What¿s this here?

26:13 CS
Oh wow, that¿s nice. It¿s a nice strap handle from a big ol¿ pot. Even has a little mark on the side. And that would have been what we call an olla or a big container to store foods and water and so forth. And that dates to around the time period later than the stone slab but consistent with those burial towers we can see, 13th century. Thereabouts.

26:42 AC
Huh. And you see in the¿oh, there¿s another big piece of pottery over there, what¿s that?

26:55 CS
This one¿s a little modern. What we have here is, this is quite interesting. The folks have converted this whole abandoned structure into a religious shrine. And you can see the three niches over there and the three niches over here and the broken pottery. And you see some cloth that looks like it¿s been tied up and burnt. And they¿ve made niches, see the little niches there?

27:25 AC
What is the meaning of the niches?

27:27 CS
Oh the niches, well the reason why they have these pagos or payments to the earth, they¿ll come up here and they¿ll, a whole variety of things that they have the payments for, and they¿ll put objects in the niches, that¿s part of the ritual. And they¿ll have a little fiesta and the yatiri or the shaman will come up here and direct that.

28:05 CS
We¿re at 4040 meters. So I lied, we¿re going to go higher than I originally said.

Ned points out a funerary tower straight across.

28:41 AC
Okay, we¿ll go on and look for one of the burial sites I guess. I¿ll duck under here.

28:48 CS
Oh Alex, what I hadn¿t noticed, but now it¿s real important: more slabs, see?

28:55 AC
Slabs across, there¿s actually a stone floor.

29:05 CS
We gotta find that temple.

29:07 AC
So you think there¿s a temple here.

29:09 CS
They quarried those from somewhere and they probably wouldn¿t quarry them from very far. Yeah, those are lining some temples.

29:19 AC
But the later people would have taken those from that temple site and brought them here to make this little altar place.

29:25 CS
Yup. People have been going to archaeological sites for thousands of years and taking from it and using them for their other buildings. Like the Spaniards came in and took blocks from the Inca temple; the Inca came in and took blocks from other people.

29:38 AC
So when you see those slabs there, you say ¿aha, there must be a temple here.¿

29:43 CS
Yes. There has to be some kind of, well, let¿s be real technical, some kind of ritual construction that probably has a sunken court and a temple with it, but it¿s possible that it could be something else. But it¿s most likely one of those sunken courts.

30:01 AC
We got lucky.

30:18 stopdown
30:31 restart, walking, breathing.

31:02 CS
We got some winners here folks.

31:24 CS
Okay, if you notice, you have perfectly preserved the burial towers, perfectly intact. And we know that those date to around 1100-1400, right? If you look here we have these houses. Now, what¿s really cool about¿

31:44 AC
These are stone houses, not adobe.

31:46 CS
Exactly. And modern peoples don¿t make stone houses like that.

31:52 AC
Too much work.

31:53 CS
Yeah, well maybe not too much work, maybe think the climate¿s changed a little bit and it¿s a little colder so adobe¿s much more effective in keeping the cold out. Then the little ice age began around 1450¿s and so before that it was a lot warmer and stone was fine. The point I¿m trying to make is these could very well be Inca houses.

32:12 AC
And you look at that down here it¿s like a little village. (CS: It sure is.) There¿s ah, here¿s a house here, there¿s a wall, a wall going down, there¿s another little house or structure down there and a couple of Peruvian women, I guess sheepherders, and then there¿s another house and another house and it leads up to a wall and then there¿s a lot of stuff on the top there isn¿t there.

32:33 CS
Yes, and these have niches. Inca houses had niches. These have trapezoidal doorways I believe, and Inca houses had trapezoidal doorways. This really looks like a nice Inca village where the architecture¿s still preserved. This is very nice. Now that would have to be excavated to be certain, but it can be very easily tested. You go inside the house, you just dig maybe, oh not even 10 inches, 15 inches and you find the floor that attaches to the outside foundation wall and you get carbon off the floor. And it¿ll tell you what the date is.

33:08 AC
But if this is an Inca village here, are you a little bit disappointed because you¿re looking for Pukara sites?

33:15 CS
Yeah, but I can live with it. When you get intact structure walls that no other professional archaeologist has ever seen, yeah you can live with that, that¿s real nice. And you have that hill over there might have the Pukara court. Jose noticed, Pepe noticed more slabs over there. And as you can see, some of these slabs are reminiscent of the Pukara temple. So it¿s possible that if this was a big Inca site, the temple¿s been just leveled over and we¿re not going to find it on the surface.

33:56 AC
Is that, that line of stone over on the crest of that hill, which is where this Inca village winds up, is that natural or is that modified?

34:05 CS
No, that¿s modified. That¿s a cultural fence. I don¿t know if it¿s a modern cemetery or it¿s a corral or it¿s an old Inca structure. So we¿re gonna have to go look. But we definitely have to see those structures down there where that lady is with her sheep. Cause those are really well preserved and very very nice. And that one looks roundish to me. If that¿s roundish then that is definitely pre-Hispanic. That is very very nice.

35:01 AC
Chip, what is it?

35:03 CS
I don¿t know yet. But now I¿m taking a shot of that village site because once we get down there I won¿t be able to get that shot. And Pepe just came to me and he mentioned that he keeps finding this Pukara pottery and now he¿s all hyped up, he¿s trying to find the temple too. And we know there¿s a Pukara site up here, we know that as much, we¿d just like to find the architecture that goes with it. There¿s a, see right there? There¿s a square tropa. Can you make it out? It¿s kind of light and white? It¿s about a hundred yards from here?

35:44 AC
I can¿t find it among all the other stone.

35:48 CS
Okay, if you see the thing on top, the shrine, and you come straight down to you, right there is a square burial tower. It¿s kind of hard to make out. Let¿s go over there.

36:00-38:49 ambi (with some wind interference in the mikes). Walking over to the tropa.

38:49 CS
Nice little house. We gotta dig it! Look at that.

38:58 Carolyn
Is this what you¿ve been looking for?

38:59 CS
No. No. What we¿ll find is it¿ll be like a, it¿ll be a depression in the ground. It¿ll have a wall that looks just like that. But it¿ll be around 10 by 10, to well to 8 by 8 to 18 by 18 more or less. And it¿ll be almost perfectly square and it¿ll have a depression. And if we¿re really lucky, on the northeast corner there¿ll be two slabs just like that for the doorway.

39:27 Carolyn
And is this a sign that you¿re close?

39:30 CS
We have the slabs, we have the pottery, and we haven¿t found the court. And the trouble is that there¿s been a lot of modification of the site since, if the court was here, since it was used. A lot of people been living on it and ripping it up. So, this area is a little low, this could very well be the court, I don¿t know. This, these little structures here fit perfectly well¿remember at Pukara the little structures on the outside of the sunken court¿so these fit just fine. But it¿s been ripped up too much. This is the right location too, with the retaining wall in the back. But I just don¿t have the smoking gun, so to speak, to say we have a court. If I were to survey this area, and I¿m going to register the site now, but we were to survey this, because it has Pukara pottery, because it has those slabs, we would almost certainly excavate here. And we¿d be looking for that court. It would take a long time with those little 1 by 1¿s that we talked about, there¿d be a lot of 1 by 1¿s all over this place trying to find that occupation. But you can see a really nice stone foundation here. It¿s a double-coursed foundation, very well made. The stones are not shaped or worked, but they¿re selected for flatness on one side, on the exterior, see right here, and then over here on the interior. And this is a pre-Hispanic construction style. You rarely see this past the Inca conquest. Very very nice, very nice. Now what¿s intriguing here that you have one of these slabs that is reminiscent of the slabs of Pukara but it¿s clearly incorporated into this wall, so the logic is pretty straightforward. If indeed this was a Pukara block it would have been ripped up by someone who made this wall so this wall would have to be after that temple was pulled up. And not coincidentally this wall is very Inca-like. So I¿m quite certain this an Inca. Hmm, this is a modern reed, a modern reed.

42:15 AC
So what are these here?

42:17 CS
Ah, they¿ve been, there you can see has the mud mortar in it, so it¿s a lot¿contrasting that to the ones down below so this is a more modern structure, or republican period, 18th, 19th, 20th century. The lintel on top is intriguing. I was looking at that because it has a shape of some of those slabs.

42:44-43:07 ambi. Fly buzzing around. Wind.

43:08 AC
Okay, are we going to find the burial chamber?

43:10 CS
It¿s right there. You can see it right there. About 50, 40 yards from us.

43:17 AC
Okay, alright let¿s go.

43:24 CS
Steps.

43:28 stopdown.
49:34 restart

49:36 AC
Okay, well Chip, now we¿ve walked over a little bit further away.

49:40 CS
Mmm hmmm. Yeah, once I got to the outside I took a look and I said, gee these are divided into little tiny structures, maybe six feet by six feet. And it looks remarkably similar to the structures that are outside the sunken temple at Pukara. Then I did the orientation and it turns out it¿s ten degrees off of north, which is probably cardinally oriented at that time because the magnetic north has shifted. So, peasant societies do not build straight, beautiful structures in the north-south directions. So it looks like we have here the wall, this double-coursed wall with the internal little slab right there (FX hand rubbing stone). We have a slab in place, where it should have been. And this does look like a little Pukara temple. I think we got one. This is really nice.

50:34 AC
This is the temple, right here?

50:35 CS
I think we¿re looking at it. And the way I would reconstruct it is, it would go probably about 15 or so meters that way (AC: that¿s a substantial structure) and 15 across coming back. And what we have is the outside of the western side on this side here. And it looks good, this is really really interesting. Like I said, we have all the pottery and we have the slabs. Now what we have on top of it is a modern construction where they pulled up an awful lot of the rocks. And remember at Pukara they had those small rocks, fieldstone, behind the slabs. And that¿s probably what these small ones are, pulled up from behind this. We also have obsidian, which is very rare for sites after Pukara in this area. So, what we have here is possibly the sunken court. It fits well. It¿s a little depression; it¿s in the right location; it has the pottery; it has the retaining wall in the back. Remember at Pukara how obsessed they were with making those beautiful terrace walls and here we go. We even have, over here, two stone slabs that come up and they look like the steps, coming into the temple. You can see they¿re oh, about oh about a foot and a half long. One is, yeah. And they¿re inserted, again, perpendicular to the outside of these structures just like remember those little stairs or those little chambers we had a Pukara.

52:13 AC
Let me just ask you here.
Dr. Stanish, you have, this afternoon, discovered a new Pukara temple?

52:21 CS
Oh yeah I think so.

52:22 AC
Congratulations.

52:23 CS
Oh thanks a lot. (chuckles.) All in a day¿s work. No, it¿s great. Yeah, this looks nice. It should be here, as Carolyn said, this is the perfect location for controlling this valley because the valley squeezes in real close; it constricts. And this is located right where the valley is quite narrow. In order to get through there you have to go past here and that¿s kind of a classic pattern of controlling passes. So this would make a lot of sense. The later occupations really obscure this. Some of the other Pukara temples we found, I found five last year, some of those they ended at Pukara and there¿s no other occupation on top except for a few tropas so there much clearer and they¿re much more obvious. This one isn¿t but this architecture¿s probably some of the nicest I¿ve seen standing. And I think the slab¿s in place; I think that¿s where that slab was originally.

53:38 stopdown

53:51 CS
So I don¿t know if this works or not but what I kind of do is if I have a lot of extra coca left over at the end of the day any site that we visited that has nice stuff, I¿ll throw some coca leaf down on places and then because the people see us walking up here and they think there might be something important and that might incline them to come up and start digging around, and so just as a, to show that in fact we respect the culture by leaving coca leaf offerings, which is something they do, maybe it¿ll dissuade them from rooting around thinking that we in fact wouldn¿t do that either.

55:16-55:44 FX: chip throwing coca leaves on the site.

55:50 Alex and Leo chatting.

56:13 CS
You know, looking at this when I did the orientation on the compass and it comes out to be cardinally oriented this makes me think, I¿m looking at it a little closer and I¿m now pretty sure this is a Pukara temple, it fits the pattern real well. That slab is in place, it wasn¿t brought over there. And these outside chambers that we see here are in fact precisely what we would expect. When you move back, just a little bit, like I just did, you can see the depression going in for about 15 meters.

57:10 stopdown.
57:57 restart.

58:04 CS
So, standing here and you¿re looking down, you can now really see that it makes all the sense. You can see the nice depression going right where those houses are and it comes back up. It¿s just the right size, about 15, 18 meters more or less, it has the structures intact on the side, damn, that¿s it. That¿s it.

58:36 AC
Well, I really killed myself getting up here and I need a little vitamins to get me back down so I¿m going to try some of this traditional folkway that I actually am not familiar with but I did see Dr. Stanish yesterday trying it, and perhaps he¿s going to try some as well. You just take a few of these coca leaves here¿

58:57 CS
Take about twice as much more. And then you want to take a little itty bit, this much, half that, half that, put it in between those leaves, don¿t let it touch the side of your mouth,

59:15 AC (with his mouth full)
so put this in the wad of leaves.

59:16 CS
In the wad of leaves. And let it sit there, in about 10 minutes you¿ll begin to feel like a slight Novocain.

59:26 AC (mouth very full!)
It¿s hard to get in my¿a lot of leaves.

59:33 CS (with his mouth full too)
I¿m afraid I¿m a very inelegant coca chewer.

59:36 AC
This is the stuff that releases the alkaloid in the leaf and is going to provide a little boost to get us back down this hill¿I hope.
This leaf, it tastes kind of bitter.

1:00:07 CS
Remember when you were a kid and you had your first beer? (AC: yeah) You didn¿t like it. (AC: yeah) Now you love it. (AC: Yeah.) Same way with coke.
s
1:00:46-1:01:27 ambi. Voices fading down the hill. Voices end at 1:01:10. Occasional birds.

1:01:28-1:03:00 ambi. Dog bark at 1:01:30. Voices speaking Quechua, man and woman. Windy.

1:01:56 CS
She¿s saying there¿s a lot more ancient things up there. The name of the hill is Inampu.
She¿s saying there¿s a lot more on top. There undoubtedly is.
Nothing on this side, but some on the other side.

1:03:16 Leo
That was a scene in which Chip approached a one of the local women to inquire more about these ruins an he also, in a gesture of goodwill, gave her a little bit of coca.

1:03:49 AC
So, lower down here, where we are, this looks round to me.

1:03:55 CS
Yeah, that¿s actually a bit modern though. I don¿t think it¿s what I thought was a pre-Hispanic one, this round one. That wall there however, the one that¿s about 40 feet back, that¿s original mortar and that¿s very nice. And it¿s part of those terraces leading right up to the sunken court, it¿s real nice. This down here, I think that¿s Inca. It has that trapezoidal door and it has that lintel that¿s very Inca-like.

1:04:25AC
That¿s the same door we saw in Cusco.

1:04:27 CS
Exactly, trapezoidal. And it¿s all a brick construction. Yeah, that¿s nice.

1:04:36 AC
I¿m talking a little funny here because I¿ve got some coca leaves in my mouth to help me get back down this hill.

1:04:44 CS
is your tongue numb yet?

1:04:47 AC
Well, yeah a little bit.

1:04:49 CS
Well good, good, good, it should be.

1:04:50 Carolyn
It¿s only the first time he¿s smiled all day.

1:04:55-1:05:41 ambi, with wind. A few bag crinkling noises.

1:05:40 CS¿lots of wind
The very fact that it has lichen, lichen grows very very slow of course, and that¿s one indication that it¿s a pretty old wall. It¿s certainly not recent, in the last hundred years or so. And I think that¿s Inca. It sure looks like Inca construction to me.

1:06:09 AC¿lots of wind
That¿s a perfectly formed room, maybe 10 feet by 10 feet, walls all intact. There¿s no roof on it there¿s some plants growing up from down below but the room stands there strong as can be, all stone.

1:06:33 AC¿less wind.
The wind¿s just come up, it¿s died back down just a minute now, but it¿s beginning to blow pretty hard here now in the afternoon. This stone structure that Chip Stanish pointed out to us, it¿s about 10 feet by 10 feet, all stone, there¿s no roof on it, there¿s some stuff growing up in the middle of it, but it¿s standing there just as solid as can be.

1:07:06-1:08:28 ambi. Walking. Good wind gusts blowing in.

1:07:49-1:07:59 FX Great rolling thunder clap!

1:08:54-1:09:30 Ambi. Walking downhill. Less wind.

1:09:30 FX rolling thunder (very beginning obscured by Leo¿s voice, but just barely)

1:10:04-1:12:58 ambi. Sheep bahing. Wind. Walking downhill.

1:10:23 FX thunder.

1:12:31 FX good rolling thunder (13 seconds).

1:13:03-1:14:13 ambi. Dogs barking, sheep bahhing (sounds like a young sheep). Dogs howling at 1:13:30.

1:14:14 AC (with dogs in the background)
So we¿ve come down about 20 minutes from the place where the village was, the old village and what I¿m sensing as I walk all along here and see this narrow mountain valley¿the mountains on one side, the storm that¿s coming on¿is that life has gone on here, as it is, as we can see it, these stone houses, and these farmers grazing their herds, for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. And Chip Stanish has shown us this afternoon that here, in Peru, history lives, all around you.

1:14:58 AC
For Radio Expeditions this is Alex Chadwick in the high plains of Peru.

For Radio Expeditions this is Alex Chadwick, on the altiplano of Peru.

1:15:29 stopdown

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