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Sustainable Development of the Andes  

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NPR/NGS Radio Expeditions
8 Nov 2001

    Geography
  • Peru
    Lima
    Locality
  • Lima; Central Market
    Latitude/Longitude
  • -13.3337638   -77.02583
    Recording TimeCode
  • 4:07 - 15:32
    Geography
  • Peru
    Lima
    Locality
  • Lima; Miraflores jetty
    Latitude/Longitude
  • -12.13028   -77.03528
    Recording TimeCode
  • 15:48 - 24:31
    Geography
  • Peru
    Lima
    Locality
  • Lima; National Agrarian University La Molina
    Latitude/Longitude
  • -12.08111   -76.94472
    Recording TimeCode
  • 24:34 - 54:51
    Geography
  • Peru
    Lima
    Locality
  • Lima; Iglesia Medalla Milagrosa
    Latitude/Longitude
  • -12.12167   -77.02972
    Recording TimeCode
  • 55:58 - 1:03:26
    Channels
  • Stereo
    Sampling Rate
  • 48kHz
    Bit Depth
  • 16-bit
    Recorders
  • SONY TCD-D8
    Microphones
    Accessories
    Equipment Note
  • Stereo=1; Decoded MS stereo; Neumann RSM 190 through Sonosax SX-M2 preamp into Sony TCDD8

NPR/NGS
RADIO EXPEDITIONS
Show: Peru
Log of DAT #: 1
Engineer: Leo del Aguila
Date: November 8, 2001

ng = not good
ok = okay
g = good
vg = very good

:40 -- Leo sound check

2:31 Alex: (w/ street ambi, lots of motorbikes) We're in the market in Lima, the kind of one of the central markets here. It's 2:20 in the afternoon on Nov 8th, which is a, I don't even know what day it is any more, is a Friday Thursday. I don't know what day it is and we're just starting. It's Thursday, Nov 8th. Okay, so we're going to just walk around the market here and record some sounds and maybe talk to some people about life in Lima.

3:12 We just want sounds, we're not going to interview any one? No, I don't think so... It's not so busy here... you have to come at 7 in the morning.. discussing how to record market...

4:20 buses, music growing in volume, children in distance

4:48 speech, off mike -- men and women... sizzling sound for three seconds...

5:19 clattering (pots and pans-ish), women talking softly... traffic sounds...

5:45 new music starts intermittently... broom sweeping... more music...

6:31 barking dog...

6:46 clinking glasses, silverware, w/ flute in background...

7:40 flute music reappears, slightly louder, many voices talking...

8:27 accordion music starts up, still w/ much noise on top...

8:48 woman asking questions...

9:19 on mike-questioning of women in Spanish, water sounds

9:49 water splashing (music still going)

10:07 clanging buckets... music dies out

10:55 crashing sounds (stacked plates?)

11:35 Two claps, one woman talking quickly, women laughing, talking

11:56 more crockery sounds...

12:09 children...

12:15 new song starts up, w/ traffic sounds under

13:55 song fades somewhat, crunching sound over it

14:21 loud dog barking (named Ramon?)

14:32 Leo: why don't you describe where we are?

14:36 Alex: So we've been walking around the market, this is in downtown... let's try again...

14:43 Alex: So we've been walking around the market, this is in downtown Lima, and there are a bunch of stalls set out here, this guys coming through with a bunch of rice I think. There are a bunch of stalls set out with fresh fruit on them, there's one person selling fish b/c of course Lima is on the coast, right on the coast, so it's a very important fishing industry here. So it's a big fresh fish kind of a vendor over there. There's a butcher kind of place with just lots of raw meat hanging from hooks and they're cutting stuff up for you. And house wares, brooms for sale, all kinds of things... There's also a dog here that's chewing on a bone, and if you get to close to him, he's not happy... dog barks...

Stopdown

15:47 Leo: okay, here I am by the ocean at Miraflores, and I'm just going to be recording a little bit of wave action, very close to the restaurant we were eating at by the mouth of the pier, or this jetty, I guess that's what this would be.

16:05 - 19:35 wave noises... (18:13 really loud wave)

19:44 Leo: Now we're in front of this mini-pier/jetty, and I'm going to record the crashing waves. This should actually sound pretty good.

19:56 - 24:29 Waves crashing (some sound of people shouting in the background)

24:32 Leo: where are we, Alex? Alex: This is the courtyard of the Nat'l University of Agriculture in Lima and we're about to talk to Prof. Elias Mohect... Leo: Elias Mujica... Alex: Elias Mujica

24:56 Alex: So this is like a little U-shaped courtyard here, very nice grass as you might expect at a University devoted to agronomy, and there's a little kind of wooden set of chairs and a table, an umbrella... and here we go.

25:18 talking off mic with Leo and Caroline...

26:18 M: We used to have a beautiful tree here, you know. And they cut it just like a year ago, and they decide to cut it one weekend, nobody was in the office, you know. The people in security, and they just cut it... Alex: But this is a university of agronomy, no? M: No, the university's across the street, this is an international research center. And in this center, this is the headquarters of the international research center.. It's about roots and tubers, in general. Many potatoes, sweet potatoes, Andean tubers (?) (car alarm goes off). Anything you want to know about potatoes, sweet potatoes or all that stuff, this is the place.

27:01 Leo: instructions on moving towards mic....

27:28 Alex: You're leaving town tomorrow? Where are you going? M: No, I'm leaving town this Saturday, I have to finish annual reports. I work on projects from Venezuela to Argentina, so it's a big report where I have go...

27:43 A: so tell me how to identify you? M: I am a Peruvian archeologist and anthropologist working in research for development. Mainly natural resource management. A: Are you attached to a university, are you a professor? M: No, I am a scientist of the center, for 7 years now. A: And what is the name of the Center? M: It's the International Potato Center... and my position here is I am the coordinator of Andean Consortium, which is called Consortium for the Sustainable Development of the Andes, of the ??? region. A: Archeologist and Anthropologist, that's exactly what we're looking for, because the first question we have is, how could the Inca have created this vast system of roads and all of these temples and stonework, and complex things in such a short amount of time. How did the Inca really have domain over the great extent...

29:01 M: the Inca's as a society have many ?? periods of development. The most known one is when the Incas were an empire, and that's associated with this fancy stonework and these very nice Incan constructions. But also there is an earlier period when Incas were one of many Andean societies around the year 12-hundred AD. So let's say that the Incans had a really short history, that's correct, perhaps only a 100 years, as, as, as an empire it seem. And the reason why they did what they did in so short time is they were smart enough to use all the knowledge that was acquired in the thousands of years before that. For example, you mentioned the Inca road system. Now we know that before the Inca, an earlier empire called the Wadi had a road system, and before the Wadi, the north coast Mocha society had a road system, and so on, so what the incas did was use that knowledge of how to use the territory and how to build and so on. Many more examples, for example, the system of ?? -- those strings with .. A: the, the ... M: We know now the Wadi empire that was around the year 800 AD, they invent the kipus. So what the Incas did was use the same system, perhaps improve it, but the knowledge was there.

30:54 A: How is it that there are, DR. Stannish tells us that there are many sites up there that haven't been explored, and really, many sites that haven't really been found yet, haven't been documented in any scientific way. How is it that so many of these sites remain unexplored and undiscovered?

31:20 M: (was he eating? sounds juicy) Let me answer you in two different ways, okay? First, b/c what we are talking about is the Lake Taciplano, the Lake Titicaca plateau, the late Titicaca high plateau, and for many, amny years, that was a perifory, a territory on the perifory of the real nuclear center Andes, where more fancy societies developed, since very early times, the Chabin culture, you know, 12-hundred A-BC. After that, the Mocha culture on the North Coast of Peru, the Nascas in the south, the Wadi empire. I mean, a lot of societies w/ very impressive pottery, constructions, material culture. And that Titicaca Plateau was in the perifory of all these magnificant cultural remains, correct? so for many years quite little research was done in that area.

32:20 M: On the other hand, you have to understand that the plateau of Lake Titicaca is a very peculiar area in terms of ecology, geography, and so on. and the historical process in this area was quite different of these central or nuclear Andean area. So what happened was that most of the archeological projects were done in areas more near the coast of Peru. It's easy to work, easy to live, not so jhigh, and so on?

33:03 A: So it's just a difficult place to be? M: It was a difficult place to live until 20 years ago. Now, it's much much easier to live there, as you will see, good roads, good airports, nice hotels and so on. Much easier to work, no?

33:21 A: Did the presence of the Sendero Luminoso in the last 20 years discourage people... M: Of course, of course, of course, and that was my case. I used to work in that Andes area until the year... the last time I was up there, not the last time, the last time I was doing really archeology work is in the mid-1980s, and Sendero asked me, please don't come back, face to face. So it was impossible to continue working in the north Titicaca basin.

34:00 A: If they asked you not to come back, you don't come back. M: You don't come back, of course. I was lucky that I was being asked.

34:12 A: Is it safe to go there now? M: Oh, completely safe. Almost, you can go anyplace in Peru, almost, ...any kind of problems. I have been back many times after that, since 1994, 95 with no problems.

34:31 A: How often do you get to places up there as an archeologist and find that someone has been there beforehand, as a looter, not a scientist, but someone taking artifacts? M: Very little. Very little. In the Peruvian highlands, and mainly in the southern Peruvian highlands, people are not used to looting. There is a very big respect for the old...predecessors of the people. Perhaps in the last year b/c of the strong economic crisis, but very little if you compare it with the north coast of Peru, for example. But normally, in the highlands, the south highlands, people are not used to it.

35:25 Leo (off mic): There's respect for it? M: A lot of respect for the predecessors and if an archeologist wants to do some sort of excavation dealing with burials, things like that, you have to ask permission, lets say, of the ?? political authority of the community, not of today political authority of the community... A: The political authority of the community has to say yes? M: Not yes, but at least know what are you doing and you have to be really very respectful. A: do you see a line of culture from Pre-Inca times down to today and the people living there? M: Of course, and not only, they're all over Peru. Although, as for the past 500 years, the tendency has been to try to cover the old tradition and the old societies with the new Occidential European society. The tendency has been to try to cover one on top of the other. I mean, you can see it -- the language, the way the people dress, the way the people think, the way the people do things this is very clear... you have to be blind not to see it. And that's all over Peru and Bolivia and Ecuador Northern Chile and North-Western Argentina. There is a very big Andean traditional native population living in this part of the world, the problem is that all these pop that are the people who descend directly from this magnificent empire, today, they are mostly associated with the poor people. One of the most biggest, how you say it in English? biggest contradiction in our history, you know, why these people that descend directly from these so powerful societies, so creative societies, so innovative societies, today are poor.

37:45 M: And the only reason is that they have been, how you say, marginalized, they have been put aside in the process... that, that the new society had a very vertical relation with them since 1535. Things are changing, of course, little by little, huh? You can see a strong movement in terms of development in terms of these people reaching very high positions in the Peruvian society and one of the best examples is that our president today, President ?? (doesn't really sound like Toledo), he is one person that, his region is in this kind of places, from the high lands, from a poor family, something like that. I'm not saying that I'm in favor of ??, it's a fact. For the first time in our history, we have a president who is not coming from this, let's say, White, high class, or middle of society, but from the lower classes of our society. and that is happening also in the business, that is happening in many spheres of our society.

39:09 A: Do you feel, here in Lima, that there is a native population and an European population in Peru? M: No, there is a strong merging today, no? The different kind of people have merged completely, although you can trace some characteristics to the past in all of them, but they have really merged, and you can see the limb (?) of all of these people, and we have some kind of social expression to call them, "cholos," for example you know. It's the merging of bloods, its a merging of colors, it's a merging of languages, its a merging of religions and so on. but at the same time, most of these people go Sundays, at midday, to meet with the people that came from the original place in the highlands to have lunch together and party and play their traditional music and they dress using trad dresses. But the next day, Monday, they are using nice suits to go to work at the bank or to the ?? or something, you know. This is emerging, this is a process. It's a very rich process, of course, and it's richer because of what I was saying before, discovering of two kind of societies for the past 500 years is also disappearing that division, no? but we have to work much much harder to really merge completely (loud bird song)

40:58 A: Let me ask you a history question if I may. M: Of course, let's go back to archeology. A: When the, the Spaniards, the Europeans came, they are preceded by a wave of illness. Was it smallpox that came through here? M: Yah, that was one of the main illness that they brought, and influenza and another kind of illness that were new for the Andes, for Indian countries. And at the sense of the demography of the population was quite big because of... A: I mean, there were a lot of people living here at the time? M: Yeah... there are different opinions, but let's say there were 11 million people living in the Andes. A: 11 million in the Andes M: Yah, in the Andes... A: How many do you think smallpox killed? M: I don't know, I really don't know. But that was one way of killing people let's say, no? there were other ways of doing so. what you have to understand is that, in this part of the world, we were living a very long historical process for more than 20 thousand years, correct? Since the first people arrive in the Andes from the North, in the year 18-thousand BC more or less, until 1535, that was almost 20,000 years of history. Where people live a process, going from a very primitive way of living -- hunting and gathering -- to a very, very complex society as the Inca empire.

43:03 And that's a very big and complex and important process, where the main characteristic of the process was the way the society relate to nature, to transform nature and to use nature, for example, the big change of being hunters and gatherers to being people who are living off agriculture and live stock, was a huge change in our society that implies not only people knowing how to transform land, how to use water, how to use plant and animals, but also has implications in terms of amount of people. I mean, if you domesticate plant and animals, you have more food, you have better food, you can live more time, you can live more time, you can have better sons, if you can have more sons, you can have more populations, if you have more populations, you can have more food, and so on, correct? And that was a process we can define it as an Andean process. (44:07) Very specific to our specific conditions as geography, as climate, as ecology, correct?

44:19 In the 16th Century, the Spaniards arrive with a very different process, in very different geographic and ecologic conditions. The Spaniards came with different (not) only ideology, culture, but with a different historical process, with different kind of plants, different kind of animals, different kind of customs, different kind of everything. What they did was, instead of learning of our process, instead of being enriched by our knowledge and traditions, to improve what they were bringing, they just tried to (clap) cover all of this traditional history and process. And they jsut try to apply the process to these new geographical conditions. Just for example, just to give you two examples, they brought with them the goats, the goats that were domesticated in the Mediterranean area, very rocky area. That means that the goats have a very special, how you say it, nails in the skooves, correct?... A: Hooves, hooves... M: So they can walk in stones, and they have special kinds of teeth and special way of eating b/c they have to eat the little plants in the hinges between the rocks and they have to pull it out, correct? so when they brought the goats, the goats began to walk in Andean territory as they had in the rocky areas of the Mediterranean, and they began to eat our plants as they were the little plants in the hinges of the rocks in the Mediterranean and they destroyed, they began to destroy our landscape, while, at the same time, we had the llamas and alpacas that were animals that were domesticated here, with a different way of walking, different way of eating, more in a good relation, a harmony with the the environment, you see?

45:31 M: Or another example, the Andean people don't use, don't use to cut threes to build houses or to warm the house or to boil the water or so on. They use the dung of the animals and they conserved the trees, because in the central Andes, it's a very arid and very dry area, so to have a tree in our country is very difficult, correct? But the Spaniards came and we have to cut all the trees to build houses and to use it for food and for fuel and so on, and again, they began to destroy the environment, just to give you two examples of how a society coming from a different historical process, arriving here, they tried to use it, they tried to live here in the same way as living in the other part of the world. And that caused a collapse, a very strong collapse, and I think that's one of the problems that we have still today.

47:45 M: Today our society's trying to use our geography ignoring all the lessons that we learn of 20,000 years of history. So if you go to the Lake Titicaca high plateau, again, today is much better, but 20 years ago, was the poorest, the poorest area of Peru, really the poorest area. While in the year two-hundred-fifty before Christ was the crowded, the region of one of most important civilizations in all of the Andes, the Huociada culture and the Latiquanagas. Or if you read the documents of the 16th century, you read that one Curhacuwa, that's one of the political authorities, he owned one hundred, 100,000 heads of llamas and alpacas, in the 16th century. And that amount of alpacas is highest of any amount of any herd that you can see today in el tiplanu. Or if you walk around the Lake, you can see these beautiful ? towns of the 16th-and 17th-centuries with these huges temples and churches, huge, that means there was a lot of money in that area. I mean, that's a contradiction, how, how, how can that happen? Until the 16th cent. the area was really, really rich. And in 1970, 1980, it was the poorest area of Peru. Why? Because of the reasons, one of the reasons was what I just told you.

49:29 A: Because they weren't paying attention to the lessons of the local geography, the local demography, the local characteristics? M: The way of using our resources, the way of using our soils, the way of using our slopes, the way of using our plants and our animals. The area that you will be seeing, was perhaps the animals like llama and alpaca were domesticated 1000s of years ago, where many kinds of tubers, roots, and grains were domesticated, and today, those crops are named as the food of the poor. You will not find them in the markets of Lima. Only poor people ate them. You see what's the problem, no? So...

50:41 M: We haven't learned the lessons of our own history. And the main lesson is not, the amount of colors that the pottery of ancient society had, it's not the amount of archeological sites that we have, but is really what the archeological data can give us of historical information of how society developed through time. Not only as artists, not only as architects and engineers, but mainly as producers. Producers in this specific ecological and geographical conditions that are really very, very difficult in the case of the el tiplan.

51:38 A: but they must have worked at sometime b/c they made, whatever they were doing, they created enormous wealth at that time... M: Of course, and you can see it. I study mainly traditional technologies, ?? and water technologies, in that Tiplano lake plateau, not only these nice, and then these agricultural terraces, but also other kind of technologies, as with water system, huge canals in the lands, in the flat lands, you know, things like that. And today, we have identified one hundred twenty hectares of these ancient technologies, completely ??

52:24 A: A 120, 000 hectares of... M: lands... A: of land that was irrigated with these, these kinds of canals, that's huge. M: Of course it's huge! We have recovered only 1000 after 20 yrs of very hard work. Why, why our governments, our politicians have not put a special attention to that? Because for them, and that's a problem of thinking, the solution is not to recover traditional technologies, but to bring modern technologies of irrigation. So they tried to bring here the same technology that people are using in Holland, or Denmark or who knows where, you know digging holes with engines to pull out the water and special things. And bringing tractors, you know to... and they don't understand that for that you need oil, fuel, gasoline, and they don't understand that that's expensive and that's in dollars, and that small producer can not rent or buy or do anything with that because they do not have access to credit...

53:47 A: But things are changing, I mean, I have been witness for this process for the past 35 years, and I am really optimistic that things are changing. And those changes you can see it in the school books. The kids in school, 14, 15 years old, the history books, they don't talk only now about pottery or stone sculpture, but they talk also about ecology and they talk also about technologies and they talk about production, creativity, innovation. Our kids are receiving a different kind of history today, and that's going to have a big impact in the near future. Or you can see mayors in the cities, or you can see that kind of people getting more and more interested in that kind of things.

54:48 A: Thank you, gracias... M: you're welcome

55:03 -- 55:55 Leo's ambi of courtyard

55:57 Leo: Okay, I'm in Miraflores and we're right in sort of like the center of it, near the church...

56:23 -1:03:25 Ambi -- traffic, children, something rattle-thumping past
57:00 man shouting "hola, hola"
58:24 traffic gets louder, horns
58:58 Good, loud horn

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