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Unidentified husband and wife  

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Logging ban discussion.  

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Rose Nu  

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Includes comments by an unidentified male.  

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Tibetans repairing roof  

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NPR/NGS Radio Expeditions
13 Oct 2000

    Geography
  • China
    Yunnan
    Locality
  • Shangri-La County; Zhongdian
    Latitude/Longitude
  • 27.83068   99.70553
    Channels
  • Stereo
    Sampling Rate
  • 48kHz
    Bit Depth
  • 16-bit
    Recorders
    Microphones
    Accessories
    Equipment Note

Show: YGRP
Log of DAT #: 4
Engineer: McQuay
Date: October 2000

ng = not good
ok = okay
g = good
vg = very good

*CHINESE NAMES WRITTEN AS PRONOUNCERS EXCEPT FOR NAMES OF RESERVES ON FIRST PAGE*

:03 Barking dogs and birds / birds¿at :06 some distortion

Female :08 I didn't I just visit. Yeah :11

Joyce :11 oh you worked in the WWF office in Beijing. :13

Female :13 china program yes. (laughs) :16

Joyce :19 that's nice, I bet you got to travel a lot (she laughs) around china, did you? :22

Female :22 Umm¿not so much. When I was china daily reporter (McQuay interrupts asks her to slide back :36)

Joyce :37 Well, the panda is their logo.

Female :38 yeah, I have been to ??, ??,??, you know those kinds of reserves, ??.

Joyce :51 well, we're part of NPR called R.E. and R.E. does long stories like documentaries and usually about nature. And about the environment, forestry 1:09 (McQuay gives mic instructions)¿

Joyce 1:12 ¿forestry and wildlife. That sort of thing. So we've decided to come here and do a story about the 4 rivers project. But one of the things that we heard about was the logging ban and that you and your husband had started an NGO and had had some influence over what had happened. So should I ask your husband or you about how that got started. Maybe he'd like to tell us a little bit. 1:42

Female 1:43 you mean the logging ban¿. 1:45

Joyce 1:45 ¿ yeah, how did that go, how did that happen. What's the roll of logging in this region and then what caused the ban. 1:55

Female 1:55 OK, (she speaks in Chinese to her husband until 2:47. They both laugh at 2:48. His response in Chinese begins at 2:50 and goes until 3:03 when she begins translating) 3:01

Female 3:02 I started filming of the (U-ness-tah-most) monkey from 1992. 3:12

Husband 3:13 (in chines) 3:15

Female 3:16 and I didn't expect that this filming has (@3:20 R.E. voice interrupts, says sorry) been going on for three years. 3:23

Husband 3:23 (in Chinese) 3:35

Female 3:34 I didn't expect either, within 3 years seen that only seen the monkeys for twice, for two times. 3:43

Husband 3:44 (in Chinese) 3:47

Female 3:47 why its so difficult to see the monkeys there, I think there are several reasons. 3:52

Husband 3:53 (in Chinese) 4:06

Female 4:07 First of all the total population of the snub-nose monkey is already very few. There are less than a thous¿ah¿15-hundred monkeys in the world. 4:19

Husband 4:19 (in Chinese) 4:28

Female 4:28 and over the population are only distributed northwest of Yunan within the boundary of Lang-tsan river west and Shin-shah river in the east. (car horn under last word) 4:40

Joyce 4:40 and Lang-tsan is the Yangtse¿ 4:42

Husband/Female 4:42 May-kong 4:43

Female 4:43 yeah and Shin-shah is the Yangtse so between May-kong and Yangtse. Very narrow area 4:49

Husband 4:54 (in Chinese) 5:08

Female 5:09 and from early 70's the primitive forest in N.W. Yunan has been commercially logged. A great amount of the primitive forest has been lost. 5:22

Joyce 5:23 who's doing the commercial logging, are these local companies? Or they come from the east or from the north or from outside of china? 5:30

Female 5:30 that's a state owned logging company and they were, originally they were based in north-east China. Which is famous for its (something in Chinese @ 5:45) also has great forest. But after, you know, 20 years of logging the timber resources in N.W. china is, you know, on the verge of extinction. So those companies has been relocated to N.W. Yunan to start the logging here. 6:03

Joyce 6:03 one more question, what kind of trees are they logging? 6:06

Female 6:07 (has some trouble with the word) alpine pines. Fir trees. 6:13

(female speaks in Chinese from 6:13 to 6:21)

Husband 6:22 (in Chinese) 6:35

Female 6:33 (she overlaps with Husband) so the habitat has shrinked 6:39

Husband 6:40 (in Chinese) 6:54

Female 6:55 So when I started filming in 1992 the monkeys are, the habitat, the monkey habitat s are like, you know, islands and are isolated from each other. There's no, you know, great massive forest. 7:12

Husband 7:13 (in Chinese) 7:40

Female 7:41 (starts under husband) So the reason I want to film this monkey is because I heard from a zoologist friend that very little scientific, there's very little scientific study has been done to this kind of monkey. There's very little information and the Chinese, the scientific study of the monkey started only in the 1980's. 8:04 (about 2 seconds of masking ambi with dog if needed. Joyce breath at end)

Joyce 8:07 so how did this lead to the ban on logging 8:11

Female 8:11 oh, (in Chinese) 8:18

Husband 8:19 yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, um (in Chinese) 9:00

Female 9:01 so then in 1995 I heard, um, news from my friend that there's a forest which is to the north of nature, to the south of nature reserve to be logged by the timber company. And this forest is a hundred square kilometer? Square kilometer and most importantly it is the home, the habitat to a group of over 200 snub-nosed monkey. 9:34

(2 seconds of ambi minus the barking)

Husband 9:36 (in Chinese) 10:01

Female 10:02 so I was really worried when I heard this news. I know that (deau-TING) county depends heavily on timber for its revenue. Almost 90% of the county's revenue come from timber. And the reason they want to log, ah, start the, you know, logging this new forest is because the original timber forest has already, you know, almost, dried out. So they want to start to log this new forest. 10:36

Husband 10:37 (in Chinese) 11:17

Female 11:18 so the director of the (ben-MAH-soh-Shah) nature reserve was also very worried because this group of monkey¿ah, this forest is connected with the nature reserve, but it's outside the boundary of the reserve so its out, you know, outside of the reserve's control. And so the director, you know asked, you know, they discuss how can they stop this so then because, he worked, at that time he worked at the provincial forestry department. so he went to the prefecture forestry department and also¿12:00

Joyce 12:01 ¿who's he? Oh 12:02

Female 12:03 ¿ah (Sih-jehn-oh) and so he went to the prefecture forestry department and also forestry department to ask them to stop this logging plan. But the, but the officials simply answered no, we can't do that, its not within the boundary of the reserve. So it's out of our control and besides, you know, who will finance the county. Who will compensate the county if we stop the logging? Because the logging will bring 8-million yen, about 1-million U.S. dollar a year to the county revenue 12:52

Joyce 12:52 but then there were floods. And then, was that what convinced people to do it? 12:56

Female 12:56 no, not yet. (speaks to husband in Chinese) 13:02

Husband 13:02 (in Chinese) 13:04

Female 13:04 yeah, the national logging ban was issued in 1998 after the Yangtse, the big flood. But this logging ban is, you know, before in 1996. But this is also related, but we'll talk about this, sorry. (in Chinese to husband) 13:32

Husband 13:33 (in Chinese. You can clearly hear Beijing mentioned @ and ) 14:07

Female 14:07 so he tried all that he can in Yunan, but still failed. But he still didn't want to give up and so then by chance he gets in contact with a very famous conservationist in Beijing who's name is (TAHN-si-ahn). And Tahn suggest he write a petition letter to the state consular (Song-si-ehn). 14:34

Husband 14:35 yeah (in Chinese. Beijing mentioned @ 14:39 (Song-si-ehn @ 14:46) 15:06

Female 15:08 Hmmm, so he wrote the letter and sent to Tahn and Mr. Tahn also you know, distribute the letter to media and college students through the Friends of Nature, Beijing based NGO. So there's, there has a lot of reports. And the logging plan and the danger of the snub-nosed monkey. And so finally the state counselor replied to his letter and caused the attention of all the relevant departments. And so finally in early 1996, a national animal (?) investigation team came (lah-CHING) county to investigate the issue and asked the county to stop this logging plan. 16:05

Husband 16:05 yeah, yeah. (speaks in Chinese to wife) 16:07

Joyce 16:08 this is an unusual thing to happen in china? 16:11

Female 16:12 I think very un-ural (mispronounced unusual?) because its the first time the NGO and media joined together to play an important role and finally defeat the government. So its very un-ural (again mispronounced unusual ?) and actually I think its a landmark on china's conservation movement. The green movement. And after this, you know, complain (?) because a lot of journalists and college students and conservationists all participants in this. So we kind of formed a coalition of all these people, we know each other. And Friends of Nature, after this became more established. More influential. And, but he himself, 17:14

Joyce 17:14 he is (Sih-jehn-oh)? 17:15

Female 17:15 (Sih-jehn-oh), (Sih-jehn-oh), he (laughs) almost lost his job. So he had very hard time at the provincial forestry department. and so finally he came to Beijing and work for the C-C-T-V 17:34

Joyce 17:34 oh, you work for TV now. 17:36

Husband/Female 17:37 yeah. 17:38

Joyce 17:38 can we just talk about NGO's in china for a minute about the conservation movement. You said this was kind of a landmark and then since then people have rallied together to form NGO's. can you tell me how many NGO's have been formed since then and what are they doing? 17:57

(:04 seconds ambi from 17:58 to 18:02)

Female 18:03 (in Chinese, talking with husband who is off mic.) 18:21

Joyce 18:23 so what's happened to the environmental movement since then and after that we can talk a little bit about the great rivers project and how the environmental movement in china is getting involved in that. 18:34

Female 18:37 (in Chinese to husband) 19:01

Husband 19:01 (in Chinese) 19:56

Female 19:57 and so after this campaign, the environmental reporting in china has increased, you know, noticeably, both in number and in depth. A lot of, you know, journalists began to concern about environmental problems. Conservation problems. and also public participation in environmental conservation also increased. And, you know, it can be reflected in the number, in the number of members in Friends of Nature. It has increased from about 200 to 1000 in 4 years. And a lot of, you know, public participated activities has been carried out. Not only in Beijing but in other cities. And another noticeable progress is in campus and universities. A lot of student environmental groups has been founded. And so in many universities there are even 2 or 3 environmental groups. And according to a statistic now there are, in China there are over 70's, it's not complete, over 70 student green, ah, environmental groups. And they are very active. 21:23

Joyce 21:24 so it's fair to say the snub-nosed monkeys and this region in general, the great rivers region, is what started the modern environmental movement in china (:02 seconds outside ambi from 21:34 - 21:36) is that fair to say? 21:38

Female 21:38 I personally think so 21:40

Female 21:41 (talks to husband in Chinese) 21:58

Husband 21:59 (in Chinese) 22:02

Female 22:03 yeah, I feel its fair to say too. 22:06

Husband 22:07 (in Chinese) 22:49

Female 22:50 so through this campaign, not only the snub-nosed monkey, also (Du-oh-chin) and the whole great rivers region, three rivers region, became known to Chinese people. And also by the, you know, foreign, by western people. And especially the 99 expo in QUE-ming has used the snub-nosed monkey as its symbol. So again increased publicity of the snub-nosed monkey and the Northwest region. And¿23:31

Joyce 23:32 OK, what do you think the future then is going to be, as this new project is being discussed of these new conservation areas and preserves that are being discussed by the Chinese government, what's the role of the NGO's and the environmental movement? Are they going to get behind this and try to push this through? And what can they do in china? What kind of power do they have? 23:56

Female 23:57 (in Chinese to her husband) 24:12

Husband 24:14 (in Chinese) 25:14

Female 25:15 so, you know, there are big international NGO's like TNC is playing a very big role in this region. They're working with government. And as for the local NGO's like the Green Plateau, which is very small and new and we think the role we can play is just like a catalyst. Because still the NGO, the concept is still very new not only to china, especially to this region. So we work at the very grassroot level. we work in the village. And we also focus on education which we believe is a very important thing to conservation. And, you know, as a catalyst by working with local people we, we try to build up the local people's capacity, we find our partners. So maybe in the future more local people would like to join us in the conservation cause. So that's the role we think we can play to this region. 26:33

Joyce 25:34 green plateau by the way, what exactly is that? 25:37

Female 26:39 its a NGO that we set up. So last year we both created our job, and we come back from Beijing to move our home to (joong-DE-ehn) and we set up this green plateau and we will work here. 26:58

Joyce 26:59 if the great rivers project becomes a reality in, I don't know, 5 years, 10 years, however long it takes, how important would that be for the environment of china? Would it be the biggest environmental action in china's history, or how does it compare to what's come before? 27:18

(:04 seconds of ambi with engine sound)

Female 27:22 Umm, well, actually I don't know what's you're concept of this great river project. Because I know originally they want to build this whole region into a national park. But I think its not implementable, applicable to china according to the reality. So I think this project has helped to regulate development in this region and to promote conservation. And this work cannot be done in 5 or 10 years. It demands many, many years and it demands a lot of efforts. so, um, I don't know, I can't see anything in short (beep of a watch @ 28:14) time in 5 or 10 years. But our goal is that maybe in 50 years, this region, the ecological degradation can be stopped. And some parts of already destroyed ecology can be recovered. And the local people, the Tibetan people here can really live in harmony with nature and also preserve their own culture. Their traditional lifestyle. We know this is very difficult to achieve because the, you know, economic trend, development trend is affecting this region very rapid. Not only the officials are pursuing rapid economic growth, but also the local (@ 29:05 background ambi of flags can be heard) people, you know, now they are exposed to the outside world. They can watch television, they saw all the tourists coming, and they want to live the same kind of life like other parts of china but that would be a great disaster to this region. So it will be really difficult to change people's concept of what is a good life. So (laughs) but we are ready to dedicate our efforts and maybe in 50 years. 29:40

Joyce 29:42 just remind me what your concept of is of the great rivers project, and its just a little part of the great big, of the whole thing. The great rivers project then, what is it, what is that part of your whole concept of environmental protection for the region? 29:56

(:03 seconds flag ambi)

Female 30:00 I think right now TNC is playing a very big role but to achieve the whole, you know, conservation or sustainable development in this region it depends on local people. All people need to participate. Not only one reserve, you know, or one village. We can start pilot project, but eventually, you know, only if all people participate can we succeed. And, so I think maybe non-profit and non-government organization a way, a hope that maybe in 10 year or 20 years, people's concept will change and local people will organize and form their own either committee or organization and, you know, manage their own resources. 30:55

Joyce 30:56 so in a sense, you want to create an environmental ethic, we say in English, and environmental concept, a state of mind.31:04

Female 31:05 yes. And that's maybe the further reason we founded green plateau here. Although we are so small, we are quite confident we will influence other people, you know, little by little. So (laughs) 31:21

Joyce 31:22 and plateau means the Tibetan Plateau? 31:24

Female 31:25 ah, yes, the Tibetan Plateau. And also (DEE-ting) also is a plateau. So, our long term goal (a little distortion on "long term"), right now we are focused in this region, but maybe our long term goal is to expand to the whole Tibetan Plateau, but we don't know if we can or not. 31:45

Joyce 31:46 and also, I mean, is it difficult doing this with the government? Is the government cooperative? Is it helpful or not? 31:55

Female 31:57 Um, some departments are, you know, supportive. Like education departments, we are cooperating very well on the environmental education teacher training project. But there are other, you know, departments, especially the forestry departments because (Sih-jehn-oh) has affected their interest. So right now we still have difficulty in cooperating with some departments. But I think we, this workshop, a lot of people came and express their gratitude to us and we were very moved. So we think, maybe some people still don't understand us. Maybe in a few years they will understand us and appreciate our efforts and work with us. 33:01

Joyce 33:02 and that's all very new. Its very new, the whole idea of an environmental movement. 33:06

Female 33:07 yes. (laughs) and I think it takes time for people to accept this concept and to accept us (laughs) as their partner not their enemy. We are not coming to confront them. maybe before (Sih-jehn-oh) exposed their wrong plan, wrong doings. But now we come back to work with them. but it take time for them to understand the whole thing and change their attitude (laughs) 33:42

Joyce 33:42 yup, (to McQuay?) everything OK 33:45

McQuay 33:45 yep 33:46

Joyce 33:46 well thank you very much for helping us out. 33:48

Female 33:49 thank you 33:50

Joyce 33:50 you speak English beautifully. You have a big job 33:54

Female 33:55 Oh yes. (laughs) very challenging 33:58

Joyce 33:56 (over female speaker) you can make a living doing¿33:59

***INTERVIEW CUTS OFF AT 33:59***

INTERVIEW #2

*CHINESE NAMES ARE WRITTEN AS PRONOUNCERS*

(street ambi under whole interview. Usable bed can be found in prior section on DAT, before interview starts.)

Joyce 38:01 can you tell me your name and what you do for a living. 38:02

Rose 38:03 OK, my name is Rose Nu and I'm original (Nosh-EE), a minority living North West of Yunan piah (?) china. Now I'm working for the Nature Conservancy as the chief representative of its office in Yunan china.

Joyce 38:19 and I love that hat, where did you get that hat?

Rose 38:21 (laughs) In (QUE-ming) I bought it. Oh, no, in my home town. Tourism ah, destination in (LEE-jahng). 38:28

Joyce 38:28 and that pin is a Nature conservancy pin? 38:30

Rose 38:31 yes it is 38:32

Joyce 38:33 well, our listeners don't know anything about the great rivers project so one of the things I'm interested in is, (:05 street ambi from 38:41-:46. Has two Joyce um's in it.) what we talked about before, most conservation plans are about saving plants and animals and land. This is different. Tell me how its different. 38:55

Rose 38:56 OK, it has to be different because China, especially this part of China is quite different. Has quite different situations. First of all I think they are very diversified local culture and religious belief because in this region there are 14 minorities ethnic groups that live here, and those people are still very poor. And we believe if you're going to conserve or protect the animals, plants and biodiversity in this areas, if we don't consider the people here than the conservation effort cannot be success. So part of our project is, ah, one model of our project in planning phase is to consider this, ah, compatible economic activities for the local communities. In other words, find out alternative, ah, way for the local people to improve their living standard. And also I think, ah, this local culture is very colorful, very interesting. They have a lot of philosophies and religious beliefs between the relationship, relationship between human beings and nature. Most of the minority religions believe human beings are part of nature and they're brothers and sisters with nature. So their belief, traditional belief say that we don't want to hurt our sisters and brothers. So if we manage to revival this culture and traditions it will help conservation of the nature. 40:35

Joyce 40:36 now we're standing in the middle of the market in (Deh-chin). Tell me a little about the marketplace in a typical small town in western china. What goes on at the market. what role does a market play in the life of a village? 40:49

Rose 40:50: actually this is very typical local market for Yunan. I don't know, as a part of china. But usually this marketplace is both for people to buy things, selling their products, and also a sort of social location for people to meet other friends, chatting. And you can see here, people are playing, ah, 41:11

Joyce 41:12 pool 41:13

Rose 41:13 pool, yeah. It's a very popular game in this area. you can see this type of game even in the very remote village like (vee-pong) you will see it. People carry all the way (laughs) to the remote area to entertain themselves, yeah 41:28

Joyce 41 :29 now do you see different ethnic groups here when you look around? 41:31

Rose 41:32 Um, most of them I can see they are Tibetan. And in this county they are 80% of the residents are Tibetan. But they are total 14 minority groups living in this county. 41:43

Joyce 41:44 can you give me a list of all 14? Do you know them? 41:46

Rose 41:47 Ah, let me try, Tibetan, (yee), (lee-sue), um, Muslim, (nah-shee), ah, what else, (male voice says Christian @ 42:02) Christian, ah, (yee), (male voice again @ 42:15) 42:17

Joyce 42:17 ¿do me a favor, just read them one after another. 42:18

Rose 42:19 (khie), (khah-nee), uh (Dhie), (meh-ow), (Lah-who), (whah), (yaoh), my gosh, (gihn-POOR), no its the (talks to unidentified male who's off mic) (foo-MIH-nahn) 42:35

Unidentified Male 42:36 not for this area 42:37

Joyce 42:38 oh, Yunan province. 42:38

Unidentified Male 42:39 Yunan province 42:39

Rose 42:39 (under Male) Uh-hu 42:40

Joyce 42:40 Yeah, 42:40

Rose 42:41 so (in Chinese?? May be English but hard to understand) 42:43

Unidentified Male 42:43 Yeah, first one's (KEY-bare-ohn) (Rose says yeah) that's the most important part. second one is (LEH-soo), ah, (Nah-SHE), (Rose says yeah), uh Puh, --both say-- (PUH-me). Um, this fourth one¿43:00

Rose 43:01 (QUE) as in¿43:01

Unidentified Male 43:02 (QUE) as, yeah (QUE) nationality¿ 43:03

Rose 43:03 ¿Muslim¿43:03

Unidentified Male 43:04 ¿Muslim, yeah um, right. Christian, (talks off mike to Rose) (TWAHN), (TWAHN) nationality, --both say-- (MEH-ow) nationality, 43:19

Rose 43:19 yeah, (@ 43:21 music gets louder), 43:22

Unidentified Male 43:23 some others? 43:24

Rose 43:25 (HAHN), I think¿Chinese 43:26

Unidentified Male 43:26 oh Chinese of course, (laughs), um, this the 9th, there still 6 more. 6 more. I don't remember exactly. 43:36

Joyce 43:36 that's OK. That's good enough. (Rose and Male laugh) obviously a lot. So you said that ethnic minorities have this attachment to nature. Is each one have a different attachment to nature, a different attitude toward nature? Each minority? 43:48

Rose 43:49 (starts with Uhhh under Joyce) Uhh, they have some difference but in general, uh, they believe multi-gods. Yeah (question to Male he says right off mic) multiple gods. Their religions believe, you know, for example, uh, for your religions you only have one gods, right? But for this minorities, a stone can be a god. A frog, kind of animals can be a god. Its (crack of a branch) multi-gods religions. I don't know maybe you have a special term 44:15

Joyce 44:15 ¿Umm-hmmm 44:15

Rose 44:16 In English. And also they (Joyce starts to interrupt then stops) all believe human beings depend, depend on nature for survival. 44:23

Unidentified Male 44:23 yeah right 44:24

Rose 44:24 and you shouldn't hurt those things 44:25

Unidentified Male 44:25 yeah, right. 44:26

Rose 44:26 and especially the minority people here, especially Tibet and (nah-SHE) respect the water very much (Male: water yeah) they believe water is the source of life, so you're not allowed to destroy the water sources. (Male: yeah) 44:40

(Cough @ 44:41)

Joyce 44:41 now having so many minority does that make (Cough @44:43) a conservation plan more difficult? 44:44

Rose 44:45 Well, I don't think it more difficult, but it make it more complicated and ahh, interesting 44:52

Joyce 44:52 Yeah, 44:52

Rose 44:53 because when you do conservation you have to consider local (Male: minorities) trah, traditional beliefs. And also you have to consider what's the local people's , ah (speaks Chinese @ 45:05, Male responds: customs) Customs. And also particularly, is it welcome by local communities because in China, minority issues is always politically sensitive. So you (someone sneezes) have to respect local people's religions, beliefs and customs. You know. So it make it more interesting. 45:27

Joyce 45:28 so you are (nah-SHE), tell me what it's like to be (nah-SHE)

Rose 45:30 (Laughs) Oh, it means different for me compared to before because before, (nah-SHE) is an Un---known small tribe in a very remote areas. But now, (nah-SHE) is very well known because of the tourism booming in, ah, this area in my home town. And also because (nah-SHE) religion which is (DOHM-pow-KOH-shur) is well know among domestic tourists and also foreign tourists and also among some famous scholars. Some pe¿, because we've got this pictographic writing language which is very interesting. So a lot of people come to me and ask me, you know, questions. But I'm very sad to see that I cannot read that writing language already. So that is a sign of, representative of loosing of the local cultures, which is very popular among those minorities. So I feel sad for that. 46:31

Joyce 46:32 do you feel different from everybody else because you're (Nah-SHE) in any way? 46:37

Rose 46:38 (Laughs) 46:39

Joyce 46:40 I thought that one time (nah-SHE) was a matriarchal society, where women were in charge 46:44

Rose 46:43 (laughs under Joyce) OK, you remind me. Yes, actually (nah-SHE) minority is famous for having strong women. (nah-SHE) women are very industrial, very hard working. And I think, ah, (nah-SHE) man are more enjoyable. (laughs) they didn't work to hard both at home and also in society. Women are more active because you're right. 47:12

Unidentified Male 47:12 this is a (under rose) 47:14

Rose 47:13 Originally from a matriarchal society. And one branch of (nah-SHE) minority, which is (Moh-soh) people, live in another county neighboring (LEE-jahng), still practice that matriarchal system. 47:25

Unidentified Male 47:26 maternal society, yeah 47:27

Rose 47:27 its very interesting, yeah. 47:28

(:03 marketplace ambi)

Joyce 47:31 anything else 47:32

(marketplace ambi follows.)

Close Title