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Larry Durgan  

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Local tour guide perspective; Landmark trees; Larry Durgan  

Interview 20:30 - 27:57 Play 20:30 - More
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Patrick R. Isaacs  

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Local tour guide perspective; Landmark trees; Patrick R. Isaacs  

Environmental Recording 28:30 - 32:21 Play 28:30 - More
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Birds, voices, traffic ambi  

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Environmental Recording 35:19 - 38:26 Play 35:19 - More
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Interview 40:42 - 1:26:02 Play 40:42 - More
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Steve Seeley  

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Lumber industry discusssion/perspective; Landmark trees; Steve Seeley  

Interview 1:31:34 - 1:52:04 Play 1:31:34 - More
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Lumber industry discusssion/perspective; Landmark trees; Steve Seeley  

Environmental Recording 1:52:04 - 1:52:56 Play 1:52:04 - More
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NPR/NGS Radio Expeditions
25 Jul 1998

    Geography
  • United States
    Alaska
    Ketchikan Gateway County
    Locality
  • Saxman; Saxman Totem Park
    Latitude/Longitude
  • 55.31972   -131.59472
    Recording TimeCode
  • :04 - 38:26
    Geography
  • United States
    Alaska
    Ketchikan Gateway County
    Locality
  • Gravina Island
    Latitude/Longitude
  • 55.32806   -131.63528
    Recording TimeCode
  • 40:42 - 1:52:56
    Channels
  • Stereo
    Sampling Rate
  • 48kHz
    Bit Depth
  • 16-bit
    Recorders
    Microphones
  • Sennheiser MKH 30
  • Sennheiser MKH 40
    Accessories
    Equipment Note
  • Stereo=1; Decoded MS stereo

LNS #147648
NPR/NGS
RADIO EXPEDITION
LANDMARK TREES DAT #7
Saxman Totem Park
Tourguide = tg
:04 tg this house is fifty foot wide, 70 ft long -normally you would have 60 to 90 people living there -urn inside the building the whole thing is made out of red cedar there's only two pieces of spruce in there those will be the beams that run the length of the building--(talk about strength of spruce) -... eagle pole ... that there is basically a house pole -its carved 360 degrees-its got a little notch on top of its gead so when you put a log on it won't roll off either side .. .it is a beaver clan house ... center oftloor is fire pit...(talks about how smoke escapes building) ... (talks about storage are) ...
1:40 tg they'd take the tallest member of your family and have em lay down and board off his feet and head and that would be your designated storage area ...
2:00 tg no nails were involved at all on the building of this -its all tongue and tyson together that way if they decided to move, fishing got bad, they'd take down ev ...
2:44 tg anyone close to the chief say a fav brother in law, son in law would be sleeping close to his area as you got farther from the chief you'd be out by the cold drafty door...(talking about design of door) ...
3:24 tg didn't have doors ...
3:32 tg the fourth pole on the right that's a clan house pole ... normally goes in front of house ...that one there has a bear on top so if this one was sitting up here in front of the beaver clan house, it would tell you that the bear clan was also welcome in this clan house ...
(talks about poles) ...pointing to poles in park
4:54 tg starting w chief poles is right in the center of the park its 108 years old -the pole you see behind it has nothing to do with the pole -it was put there for support reasons. we do have up to 100 mile/ hour winds in winter.. .so put support pole behind it.. .... man asking ? off mic ...
5:56 tg whenever you see someone upside down on a chiefs pole, usually meant that someone owed the chief a great debt -...
moving on
6:10 tg
pole guy sitting on box, sitting on bentwood box that was to indicate that he was a man of great wealth -you'll see his hat has four rings on it that was to indicate that he had four potlatches thrown for him -to understand what a potlatch is for --say i throw a potlatch for this person right here -and for two days and two nights we have nothing but partying dancing and feasting i expect
Interview with Larry Durgan
14:591d
I left fishing bc the weekly pay instead of the annual pay I was never getting anywheres on the annual I finally started getting somehwere on the weekly and then I worked the pipeline finally started getting somewhere and then lost all of that in TX.
--cJ
what do people see for their future in ketchican
14:401d
tourism, if we can get more local tourism instead of them bringing in people on their ships
instead of people bringing them on their ships and then taking them on tour buses then a
little bit rotates here in the economy (music in background)
14:561d
the ads we have on the radio stations say that tourists brought in 30 milion they neglect to
say that they took out 29 million of that-that's roughly, that's guesstimation ther' s no
facts or figures that I have on it ...
. . . talking about little stores ...
15:421d
at the end of the summer when those ships stop coming in they close up shop and leave so its not helping the economy here, local tours would and local shops would but everyone's jumping in and even parking on our docks is difficult for local tours they've got plenty of buses... talks about buses ... our roads are narrow ... problems with --Larry Durgan, born and raised in Ketchican
Ambi for interview
16:57 birds, voices, traffic and airplanes, motors, talking to 20:31
Interview wi Patrick Isaacs
... talking about sea alaska ...
--cj now what I'm interested in is the opinion of people who have to live where the forest is or was-¬
--pi "was" is more like it
21:12 pi now that they've taken the all timber industry, if you notice on prince wales island, the majority 80-85% of of prince wales is is bare there's no tree or anything -well now they're trying to get the cricks cleaned out and also the regrowth program--we had a regrowth program--but it just didn't follow through, it kind of fizzled out so now everybody there concentrating on the mining -we want the mining, but then again we don't want the mining, for the simple fact that the mining's going to keep the money in the corporation pockets and its also going to supply people with jobs -but then we have all these other programs that we're trying to start and also compete against the others ... (names groups) ...all these native corporations we've all got to get together and keep what we've got together now, bc if we don't then we're going to lose it all.
22:02
--cj do you think that mistakes were made with sea alaska ... short term profit, cutting ev as fast as they could ...
22:11 pi yea, its not just sea alaska, but also with native village corp ... so they've both been a joint venture to try and get this mining done ... and a lot of local people esp elders not happy about it .. .
22:46 pi because they're not trying to preserve it, they're not trying to take care of it and respect it -I do respect my land, I have to--my grandmas, my grandpas my aunties all my nanas ... all my ancestors respected it.

23:08 cj is there a compromise -a way that native peoples can still make money, good money from the forest and still keep it intact?
--pi yes,
--cj how do you do it?
23:15 pi I don't know -but I know my aunties and uncles who are running the village corp, they do know how -I think its just a lack of communications betwn corporations and the lack of comm betwn the people in the village corp or in the cities like ketchican and saxman and vicinity here -they know how to do it ...
--cj what does it (cutting old growth) do to your ability to live a subsistence lifestyle?
23:52 pi very tough.
--cj what happens?
23:54 pi (birds calling throughout) right now they're trying to take all of our subsistence rights away all of our sub rights -if you can see in the papers, ketchican daily news, prince wales daily news -urn you can see that they're trying to take away our subsistence away -they have been -I remember I used to never have to have a license ... now they want to reinforce the all the hunting and sub rights that I have, that I've had for over thousands ofyrs.
--cj what about physical effects on the forest and affects ability to get game?
24:46 pi it makes it a lot harder, before I used to be able to go in my back window or backyard to get my hunt -now I have to go on a three or four day hike or four five day camping trip to go out our neighboring islands to get my deer, my seal or my crab -or any ofthe kind of game I like to take from the wild -I have to go farther than I expected -these are the simple facts -more people coming here top Alaska, so there's greater demand for jobs, greater demand for areas for people for living
--cj tourism? Is that going to replace logging and other forms of making a living?
--pi it already has.
--cj is that a good thing?
25:28 pi in a way, to some people it is -I mean its given me a job today its supp me and my two nephews -its supp this family that I have and its also supp this community not only saxman but also ketchican
--cj price to be paid?
25:46 pi yes, the downside w the tourism industry right here in saxman -urn me being a local native I can't go into my longhouse nor can I go into my comm house for the simple fact that gray line princess cruises and celebrity cruises have paid a contract with saxman with the local natives to where they buyout ev, they have the right over me a local native they have the right over every building out here, that's wrong
--cj makes you mad?
26:15 pi yea, it really upsets me a lot because I'm a local native here this is my country, my heritage my culture I should have more right than them in that building than they do -that's the only downfall I have about being a tourguide here in ketchican AK -just the fact that I can't even go into my own native places here and show my guests some of my culture -be I'm a third generation dancer from my family, I love to dance and I love to sing and I love make regalias -to show my people, my native culture, and my tastes, ev I like to do -I'm v spiritual and it disturbs my spirit very much that I can't go into these places here that other people have priority over
27:03
27:05 pi there's a big price-we don't like it and we're trying to get rid of it -in the yr 200 that contract no longer exists with the people here in saxman so we cannot wait till the yr 2000.
27:30 pi Patrick Isaacs, half tlinket -half haida, lives in ketchican tourguide for ketchican totem tours (local tour company) goodbyes.
Ambi: Patrick Isaac interview.
28:20 ¬birds, voices, traffic Plane overhead low hum @30:39 gets louder, overhead and passes ends at 31:45 continued ambi voices, birds, traffic to 32:23
Interview with Steve Seley
32:21 mc going aboard steve seley' s boat to see his lumber mill-¬water lapping, voices, motors ... adjusting equipment
34:00 mc onboard, motor hum, more voices, water, airplane overhead(?), boat starting up and moving, @36:25 levels very high and remain high till @38:13 boat slows down to stop at 38:20, can hear voices again
On other side of dock, just crossed the harbor
... talking, joking around w Steve ...
41:29 we're unique in that we're on an island -there' s no road access -the only way to get here is by boat or by aircraft ¬
41:46 the is. Is ...
41:44 Island is Gravina (?) Island -And uh we're standing in our shipping and receiving yard, the forklift that's coming in right now is bringing in units of lumber -produced up at the mill ¬and uh they'll come down -they'll go into the inventory -this facility, this bridge is supp by pontoons, takes us from the land out to deep water -once a wk a southbound barge will come in, drop the ramp on the deck, take the forklift, load our lumber on board and we'll ship an average of 200,000 board feet a week -that barge will go to seattle, discharge, and then will go onto a truck and off to market.
... joking ...
42:43 ss so that's pretty much it -the pile of chips behind us are residual -portions of the logs that are defective, that you can't make a piece of lumber out of, so we'll chip that into a specified length and thickness and that product will go to one of the mills in nw and they'll make paper out of it.
--cJ
pulp mill
--ss
pulp mill paper mill
... shipped to ketchican? ..
43:15 ss ... we shipped some to Ketchican pulp ...
cj asks about production yield and size of operation
--cJ
you said 200,000 board ft per shipment?
--ss
yes that's correct.
43:36 ss in today, we-we're a medium size plant -five yrs ago we would have been a small plant ¬we'll produce about 12 million feet of lumber a yr is our goal-at the point we're producing 800-875 thousand per month.
--cj
Fed, private lands?
44:01 ss our timber supply for this fall is 8 million board feet, 5 million board feet is off of state land -to balance off u.s. forest service.
--sound of bus driving up, Getting on bus, talking on bus
@45:19 ss talking about scaling and sorting ...
45:33 ss
we've got two cedar species, spruce and pulp saw logs and then a low quality log that we'll call a chip log
--cj what is a saw log?
45:47 ss we will cut anything that will yield a board out of the outer rind, the heart, the center of it can be defective full of shake or rot -as long as we can retrieve lumber out of the outer circumference of the log we cut it and classify it as a saw log
--cJ cant?
46:06 ss a cant is a product that usually is the first piece as you take a round log into the break down mill and you make the first cut you -a slab comes off, a cant is usually four to eight inches thick ... and that was -years by that was primary breakdown ... and that's basically all the cutting that was done
46:40
--cj what are these here?
--ss log segments ... 1'11 take you through the machinery center and explina em ...
.. . getting off bus.. .
. . . machinery sounds ...
47:45 ss we've been in the woods for 25 yrs and once you remove the bark and let that log seg sit in the yard a little bit its really easy to mistake spruce from hemlock ...
48:03 ss this center here is our log merchandising line ... you can see the pile bark in behind ... when that log comes in and has all the bark on it its basically just how it was standing, except we remove all the limbs in the woods-the log comes in on the deck and the first thing we do is run it in on the barker, remove all the bark, any rock that's embedded on the outside any dirt and we bring that log, transfers down the chain comes across to the buck saw -the operator looks at it for grade ... and he'll go through look at the log find where he should buck it to get the best extraction of grade ... ( exchanges between cj and ss to explain bucking)
... talking more about process of production ...
50:32 ss
this is our powerhouse we produce-we got three diesel generators ... when all the machinery is operating we run all three generators ...
51:16 ss we take these log segments and enter them into the breakdown mill and what we will do at this machinery center is is take the log that's anywhere from 12 inches in diameter to 60 inches in diameter and we'll break it down into a cant or a flitch, ... a flitch is a timber its got 4 _sizes.. .
52:01 ss its now in a flitch form, we've removed all the defective portions of the log, thats gone to the chipper, chips convey up into the chip bin from there they go into a truck in our truck down into the holding area that you saw in shipping and receiving ... the flitch is graded ... put into holding inventory ... cut into boards ...
52:41 ss so that's what we have at this plant right now we produce primarily shop what we call shop or industrial grade lumber, today that lumber goes into the nw, washington, oregon where its kiln dried, surfaced, and graded and its sold to plants -which again which will rip it and chop it and are making door parts window parts and other components, furniture -our goal here is to one day duplicate that manufacturing capability -we can do it right here on sight its as easy for us to put finished goods in a container and ship it .. .as it is raw material ...
interrupted by loudspeaker ...
54:03 ss the biggest advantage for us urn on taking it to the next step in manufacture is that we continue to refine the product and get it into a more finished form -our markets for it expand -today there are only a certain number of users that who will by green chop lumber and to expand marketplace we take our lumber into another facility stateside and dry it and dress it now we've got dried lumber -its stable we' can hold it into inventory its not going to deteriorate -you know we can take it anywehere -you know the customer can be anywhere ... doesn't matter
... talking about jobs being created ... CJ create jobs?
54:51 ss
oh abs., and that's another benefit, the reason that we're on this site the reason we're here on this location is that the bourough of ketchican decided it was in their best interest to the comm to assist industry to keep jobs, maintain jobs in ketchican -when the pulp mill closed we lost 350-500-600 jobs and the city was really scrambling as to how are we going to create a positive environment for investment and infrastructure in an industry where the future is so ?able -you know we don't know from day to day about our log supply.
--why is that?
55:48 ss we've watched the harvest levels on the tongass go from prob close to a billion ft a yr... we're looking at a t-lump that will allow 270 million a year off the forest service ground, the forest service I believe with the guidelines that they're given to work within are trying their best to get timber out for operators like ourselves
56:30 ss the unknown is the injunctions that will be filed against the timber
by whom?
56:45 ss anyone with $25 ... I think the part of industry that's left operating today is a victim of right wing industry folks who push the harvest levels on the tongass back to 500 million board feet a yr and extremists on the environmental side that say "don't cut any of it" ¬and you have those two factions that are waging a war against each other -and its the folks that are caught in the middle the people that aree still trying to live go to work everyday who are stuck -we are part of an industry that is behind the curve really than the rest of the united states -we've-ten yrs ago we were cutting primarily for markets that wanted a cant or a flitch-
meaning raw timber?
57:41 ss and today we have to make the investment infrastructure so that instead of sending a cant or a flitch we're producing a near finished product -and its difficult to sit down in this day and age of computers you know I can build a spreadsheet that can tell you almost ev you wanted at the end, tell you everything but fiber supply, that's the unknown -a saw mill an investment supply mill is nothing w/o a steady supply of wood 58:18 ... and so w/o it its difficult to finance that new kiln, or new edger...or new finger joint machine
--cJ
so if I understand this correctly, adjusting to new level ... more value added products, look for diff types of markets ... (plane). .. let' s talk about the source of timber? Old growth? Sustainable resource? What's your opinion on what is the sit of old growth?
59:44 ss I believe it can be logged and maintained -we would like the opp to cut second growth, my family came to alaska in 1953, my father had a job for ketchican pulp on prince wales island -as I grew up in that logging camp, for 18 yrs. I watched them build roads and cut trees, when I fly back over some of those areas today where we used to fish and go picnicking and what not have been harvested, we have 65 and 70 foot tall, the forest service has done a good job, thinning in a lot of the areas to improve the quality of that timber, the second growth wood is much less defective -if you look at a lot of these logs behind us, a lot of them you can see the rot, you can see the shake in them -it doesn't produce quality lumber, it doesn't produce any kind of lumber. We're handling a large piece, we'll bring it in, cut it, and a lot of it goes out to chips. We're dealing with an over¬ripe stand of timber that should be harvested to -if your going to extract the value out of that tree. Whether we clear-cut or selective-cut is a whole other issue and a lot of people lot of loggers have views on that aspect of it
cJ
what's your view, can you selectively cut?
1:01:20 ss absolutely -this timber, every log you see in the yard today was flown in on a helicopter.
--cJ
expensive.
1:01:30 ss expensive, but it produced the quality of timber -you know we work on a deliver log cost, in a market -those are our two factors that are continually moving but we can gen keep a handle on em. I personally don't care whether we're cutting an $800 log or a $200 log, and we'll gear our capability towards the type of log supply that we're going to have available today its an old growth supply -we'll harvest a stand of timber that will have 10 trees that are 5 or 6 ft in diameter and the balance will be 9-30 inch. And so we have to go in with a machine that is big enough to harvest and pull the biggest tree out and we're not that efficient on the smaller trees. And the same thing with our mill, you know we have to have at our break down center a facility that will handle the great big log as well as the small log
% of timber old growth v second growth?
1:02:53 ss I would say that we're 95% old growth, most of what we call 2nd growth and that folks on the outside might still classify as old growth are areas that have slide areas where maybe a 150-200 yrs ago the side of a mountain slid and then receded and started to grow back on its own. We'll get in today those trees are 150-180 ft tall we harvest it in conjunction w the rest of it -we can tell by looking at the growth rings and the tree itself the quality of the product that comes out basically if its an old growth stand or second growth talking about quality of sound, mill in background

1:04:12 cj
tell me where these logs come from
1:04:15 ss
these logs were harvested from MacKenzie inlet about 20 miles from ketchican, that would be to the southwest
--fed, state land?
1:04:27
it was a fed timber sale, again the sale was all harvested by helicopter, it was a selective harvest -there was four diff cutting units and there was a diff prescription for cutting in each of the units -uh one unit we would leave every tree that was 12 inches in diameter on the butt -next unit it would change to maybe 14, 16, or 18 inches so it was kind of a test to look at the harvest, look at the cost of it, and take a before and after the large stem the high defective stem is removed, what does that stand look like
cj
what do you think people in the timber business are going to have to do after the yr 2000, the new regime, the way things are going to be in se alaska w the two pulp mills closing down obviously there's a shift in the kinds of product that's being sold and to whom -you are a medium sized outfit ... is large scale clear-cut logging going to continue here or do things have to change?
1:05:43 ss
Compared to the way we were five years ago its already changed -you know we're harvesting much less -I think last yr there was probably a 110 to 125 million ft harvested off of u.s. forest ground -I think we harvested 6 million last yr. Our mill was not in operation we were building, we purchased one timber sale so that we would have a starting inventory -there has to be 2 diff or 2 major changes I think for our industry to not only survive but to move ahead -one change is-I think in the-our phil. on how we are going to work together or if we are going to work together-uh -taking my word that there is an extreme left and an extreme right and they battle each other and to no good result and my belief that there is the majority of the people, whether you are tuned more towards the environ. or more towards the industry side, that maj will want to continue to harvest timber in AK -to me the biggest thing that people want in this state today is to buy lumber -you know the market in AK today for wood products is 110-125 million board ft a year -yet in this state we produce, I doubt we produce 10 million ft of lumber that's used w/I the state of alaska -we don't put it into its finished form -as fast as we can we are going to put in dry kilns, we own the planing equip., we own the trimmers, we own the chop equip, as fast as we can put it in we' re going to do it. Somebody asked me the other day well, I guess they came up and said "well you've met your goal, you have a mill" -and I said "well no we haven't met our goal yet" and they said "well what is it?" Our goal is to have dried lumber finished grade stamped construction grade products for sale in fairbanks, anchorage and retail yard in the state -and when we've done that we've met our goal -I think we've been successful -I think from a profitability standpoint we'll be most successful -from the public opinion standpoint we'll have met what the public wants -you know most everybody likes to drive nails and build something whether its a deck on their house or a new addition and when you have the opp to use a little better quality lumber, lumber that was produced wli your own region, out of your state, out of your trees -the balance as to whether we allow someone to cut that tree down or not cut it down is going to swing more in favor of well lets cut a few of them down bc we want the product that's coming out -and most everybody really myself looks at it what's in it for them .. . the harvest of timber has been a job base and that's been good for our region¬ we've not got to look at it as a material base as we build in this state, products 1:09:21
1:09:22 ss do you think that the people who say look let's leave the old growth alone and log the second growth or log younger old growth is that doable is that reasonable?
1:09:35 ss we don't have enough young growth, enough second growth at this point in time, its only ever been really any major timber harvest since the late 1950s -I think the industry was going strong in the early 1960s -it just hasn't had a chance to grow back to a point where we can start you know any kind of a commercial 2nd growth harvest
cj sometimes people , referring oregon and washington, esp washington state, look at what's happened recently there and the collapse ... downturn of the industry -and you know some people say it well it was the __ and some people say well you ate your seed corn urn, what's you opinion and do you think that se ak runs the risk of eating its own seed corn?
1:10:39 ss I don't think that we've harvested, ... you know the % don't come to mind the areas that we've harvested and the areas that we don't -most of them that you read don't make any difference anyway -because they can be construed either way by whoever is reading the story -I can take you in a helicopter and fly in almost any direction you choose and most of the time you'll see old growth standing timber, you won't see many clearcuts -uh the harvest areas have been concentrated in a few areas -I'd like to see a portion of the tongass set aside for harvest, to be managed on a commercial basis, managed by the people in the state in the region -you know set the boundaries -uh a lot of people think that we did it when we set out national parks in diff areas -but take another look at it look at the industry and look at the kind of industry do we want to build in this region ... 1:12:00 ss and from a timber industry standpoint, set those areas aside for harvest, include some of the areas that have already been harvested, include those areas where a second crop is coming back -and so when its ready to harvest we can go in and again on a sustained basis or a well-managed basis and harvest it and be confident that we know that we have a fiber supply today tomorrow and fifty years from now -and you'll get an investment in infrastructure today we make an investment in this plant my family has 5.2 million dollars in developing the grounds and putting this initial step in -we could easily spend another five putting in the rest of the equipment that we need its gotta be done out of retained earnings -its gotta be out of whatever cash you can squeeze to out it back in -bc w no future with no definite set aside no matter how large or how small a timber base its difficult to get the banking community excited
1:12:55 airplane overhead
1:13:57 ss our industry needs to make an investment in infrastructure you know get into the twentieth century w their man capability it requires a huge investment of money and the only way you're going to see that investment come quickly is by id a stable supply
cj 100 yrs from now? ... What do you see a 100 yrs from now in the tongass
1:14:42 ss a greater move toward 2nd growth, 2nd growth is more economical to harvest its low in defect it produces a higher volume of construction grade lumber, my preference would be to cut it -I mean we're looking at a log diameter thaes going to range from 12 inches to 30 inches rather than 8 inches to 70 inches -that's where we can look to in the future -its what we're going to do from this point in time where we don't have a stand of 2nd growth of timber, one that is large enough to comm harvest and 2) that will support the industry while we're waiting for those trees to grow we're going to have to cut old growth -I don't hink its bad there's areas that I don't want to see harvested, there' s areas that I think should be harvested and that's the key at this point -ifthere's a way to get the people together and I know the forest service tries to do it w their scoping projects and they send the info out and the public responds and the right wing industry guy says " this is no good" and the left wing environ guy says "this is no good you wanna cut a tree" so we're left in this ?able time of just no knowing -we're harvesting timber today on a state sale in an area called kitkin (?) bay the forest service has spent the last year and a half two years laying out
the chisina (?) timber sale and we look at it its an area where old growth timber has been harvested ... we thought its kind of a good idea that they laid the timber out ...

1:16:58 ss explaining how they "layout timber"
1:17:11 ss and its expensive the forest service spends a lot of time up here identifying the stands of timber for harvest, I found out two days ago that somebody' s filed an injunction against harvesting the timber -so as we look at the forest service' s five yr plan, today, the timber sales to make ready for harvest we see that 30-50% of those sales have already been filed against or have been stopped -we purchased a timber sale last fall on the north end of prince wales island, purchased two small sales and as the forest service went ahead w other small sales, folks in the point baker area said "nope we're going to stand this level of harvest" -the forest service sat down with them and said "okay and they said what level Can you live with?" -they found a middle ground it ended up that I gave one of the timber sales back, agreed not to harvest it and the forest service agreed that it would never be harvested -its that kind of give and take that's going to be required if we are going to live and find a supply .. . your answer 100-50 yrs, when that second growth is going to be ready, there's got to be some give and take, both sides
18:47
talking about what to look at next, where to walk .. .
1:20:15 jg
what about all the wildlife that gets misplaced a bit? ..
1:20:38 ss any of the wildlife that depends on a certain tree, if you remove the tree is going to have a tough time. I don't know of any in this area I've lived here all my life, I've hunted, trapped fished, what we find is when we go into a timber sale area of go back into a timber sale area you know the wildlife is still abundant ¿I tell my guys loogers don't kill trees, uh lohhers don't kill deer people do prob the biggest if you wanna talk about deer pop in the rise and decline its my op that that can be controlled with a hunting license and how many deer tags you've been given, I believe that you can harvest four deer a yr per person, in my family that's 16 deer ...if you wanna
talking about
1:23:05 ss you know the wildlife is abundant out there its remote it doesn't get the pressure from hunting ... you can't clearcut ev, you know there's an impact on anything ev time you remove a tree there's an impact ... 1:23:37 so we gotta weigh the balance, in th day when 90% product was going to asia it was tough argument now we have jobs here locally, and the product left the states and by a lot of people that was viewed negatively today 90% of our product stays w/i the state of alaska, within the united states in in the future we need to have 90% stay w /in the state of ak ... its a balancing act
--cJ
1:24:37
I think its something that the people of alaska should decide and we're part ofthe u.s. other people need to be given the opp to assist in that decision-but we gotta get the information back out to them -I've got distant family members that live on the east coast and it would be wonderful for them to come up and visit and we talk about is there an area still left w some trees, with some wildlife if they had their way they would say let's don't cut anything . .. but what they don't know and what the people don't know when you come up to se ak ... there's lots of old growth timber, there's lots of fish, there's lots of wildlife ... industry can survive, mills can survive and we can still maintain a pretty darn nice place to live and for others to visit.
1:26:08
AMBI
1:26:30
aiming to west? Last part of int. machinery hum
1:28:43
1:28:48
move direction, begin of int. machinery hum
1:31:35
off-mic talking and walking,
1:32:01
more machine sounds
1:32:18
this is a clear spruce flitch
cJ its a piece, 16 ft long
1:32:37 ss what you'll notice in it is ... the growth rings per inch -as you know each one ofthese rings is a year life on that tree and if I mark w my pencil and come across here growth rings -you'll find that you've got 12-14 rings per inch
and what does that tell you?

1:32:02 ss Its real fine grained and this product will be sold as slicing stock ... and it'll be laminated on top of a ... manmade beam, low quality lumber ... makes a veneer so now you can take one clear cube and make fifty clear cubes -beams that can go up in someone's home and you and I walk in there and visit them and you say geez you got a spruce beam in your house and it really looks nice -and you go about having dinner, the beam they've got is prob structurally better and as all appearances of this piece right here .. .
1:35:01 ss the piano people spruce is used in musical instruments as sounding boards they would never buy a piece like this bc its too nice for their needs ... made of small strips so they'll take same quality of log w the fine grain but with knots and they'll cut it into boards and then they'll chop the knots out ...
low grade hemlock can be glued back together ... talks about making hemlock look like spruce
--cj in essence people are coming up with more ways to make high quality old groeth go farther .
... Taking pictures ...
1:37:00 ... (talking about piece of wood that they're looking at) ...
more pix and machine sounds
walking
1:39:27 cj whatta we got here
1:39:30 ss this sort is the kind of wood we pull for cooking board
--cJ
cooking board?
1:39:35 ss in japan prob ev home has a cooking board or a board that you chop meat and produce on -and this board is about 8 &3/4 inches wide and about 2 ft long and when its tried and finished there'd be a carrot stamped on one side and that's the side you stamp vegetables on and on the other side will be a chicken and that's the side you chop meat on but its a popular gift that's given and a high use item and the specification on it is the grain doesn't have to be so tight, but in that board there can't be a knot, you know in the whole process of cutting it's a continual extraction and sorting and sorting you know the diff grades to get the value out of it and this just happens to be one of those sorts, we'll take it down dry it dress it and then it'll go ... these boards are graded to 40 % they will produce 40% cooking boards -40% of that 18 ft piece will come out in 8&3/4 x 2 ft clear boards ...
1:41:00 ss we provide the raw material now and we contract with a mill a remanufacture plant in W A who dries the lumber dresses it and then chops it for us
1:41:18 ss we wanna do it here
difficult?
1:41:24 ss its capital intensive and its the million dollar ? is today in this environment will the owners of the standing timber be in the fed govt and state of ak do they have confidence that there are going to be trees tomorrow for operations like mine that through one of theor loan guarantee programs will come in and provide that guarantee that tells the local bank yes there is going to be timber ifthere's not through no fault of the operator no fault for you as a bank ... we're gonna back you up you're not going toi be left hanging
1:42:17
--cj given the nature of the ?ability of lawsuits and varied people who own the timber and what they wanna do with it ... (risk of investing?)
1:43:04 ss w the risk we've taken this should be a high profit business, today it isn't, its more of a lifestyle its what we like to do its these people out here grew up went to school w my kids, I've been in this community for a lot of years its what I like to do I don't wanna live anywhere else I would like to be able to retiremy son is working in the plant I'd like to seee him take it oevr and run it its as good of a course in business you know the skills you would pick up in college if you pay attention in this family business you can pick up any of those skills -sometimes its a school of hard knocks bc you pay for your mistakes
1:43:54 cj
if I were an investment banker looking to invest in this area at this point 1998, do you think I'd be wiser, smarter w my clients money to invest in kiln operation or value added operation, or tourism ...
1:44:28 ss if you're looking at it totally from the industry standpoint you would prob-I don't know which way it would go you know the last two headlines that I read were everybody got sick on one cruise boat and the next one was burning in FL so right now neither one are attractive to me
1:45:01 ss I been in the fishing boat service, I been in the resort business uh its tough but its seasonal, its tough to uh you know have the quality of product those people wanna have and advertise it over six months, to me the timber business is better I think you look at long term -I kind of think if you're in the banking business and you're loaning money, 50% of you decision is based on raw material and where is this industry going to go and the other 50 % is who you're loaning the money to and if the people in this industry like our family dedicate ev to make this thing work we're here every day of the week you know we get up at first ones at quarter to five and I hit the hay at 11 : 3 0 -we cover a lot of hours a day and they're all based around this operation (plane) and if you have that kind of stick-to-it¬ness, if there' s any opportunity if market gives you any kind break, if there are a few trees to harvest, this one will go -you gotta remember we only harvest ten million feet a year, produce 12 million ft a yr, 1 million board feet a month we think that if we are the best set up, if we can add the dry kilns , if we can add the other value-added capabilities we can't guarantee that we'll be here forever but we'll be here to shut the lights off and that's where we're at.
1:46:48
AMBI
1:47:08 squeaking sound, motor
1:49:18
talking about whether its too loud to record interview, "pretty loud"
(a lot of background sound)
1:50:05 ss ( talking about making "caps" out of what used to be put in chipper) just explaining this product was dropped in to a chipper ... we take em and run them through _ mill and 1 & 1/2 thickness board will dry and dress ... moldings and other components .. .
. . . increase value over chips 7 to 8 times ... doesn't look like much ... now we have a product that markets, call them "caps" .. . outer round of the log
AMBI
1:52:04
loud machine area, some banging
1:53:00

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