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NPR/NGS Radio Expeditions
23 Jul 1998

    Geography
  • United States
    Alaska
    Sitka County
    Locality
  • Chichagof Island; Tenakee Inlet
    Latitude/Longitude
  • 57.83389   -135.42056
    Recording TimeCode
  • :37 - 1:02:00
    Geography
  • United States
    Alaska
    Sitka County
    Locality
  • Chichagof Island; Tenakee Springs
    Latitude/Longitude
  • 57.78083   -135.2225
    Recording TimeCode
  • 1:04:23 - 2:04:52
    Channels
  • Stereo
    Sampling Rate
  • 48kHz
    Bit Depth
  • 16-bit
    Recorders
    Microphones
  • Sennheiser MKH 30
  • Sennheiser MKH 40
    Accessories
    Equipment Note
  • Stereo=2: 1=L, 2=R; Decoded MS stereo

NPR/NGS RADIO EXPEDITIONS
Landmark Trees
Log of DAT 4
reporter: Chris Joyce

DAY AFTER LMT HIKE - MORNING AT CAMP SITE

00:39 cj - give me a bit of the subjective assessment of the site ¿ not only of the site but where it is and how it compares to getting up there

00:49 SS - well, we definitely wouldn¿t take a commercial trip - people paying to bushwack - the amount of bushwacking we did yesterday. We picked this site here bc of the good anchorage and being able to walk over from here also gave us an opp. To see what is around here rather than walking straight up the river bottom is what I call it. But for us it is a good way to see what the surrounding terrain is like and whether deer habitats like up higher and plants and didn¿t we find a unique species of flower that we don¿t usually see, Richard?

1:33 RC - yeah - in those fins there was a plant I have maybe only seen 5 times in the Tongass, swerdia, closely related to the gwinchins (?)

1:45 CJ - do these sights have personalities to you?

1:49 RC - the really remarkable thing about this one is the height of those trees. We had I think 6 trees over 200 feet tall which is up there for trees in the Tongass. The highest I have ever measured is 225 and we found one yesterday that is 213 feet tall. I think I have only measure 2 sites that have maybe 3 200 foot trees in it. Most of the dominant rees where right up there this time. It felt to me like a young old growth site - kind of like the little big horn - it was not - hardly any large hemlocks in there and hemlocks since they tend to come up in the understory and tent to replace spruce over time is the dominant tree in most of our old growth forests. And quite a few of LMT sites we will have really ancient old growth forest with a lot of hemlock a lot of broken tops way more downed wood on the forest floor. But these trees were - almost all pure spruce - very clean tops, still vigorously grwoing. I would say the oldest one - just a wild guess - 3 to 400 year old

3:22 SS - this forest feels vigorous like it is pumping a lot of biomass up¿I don¿t think it was bc of the rain yesterday - but it didn¿t have that cathedral like feel that you get sometimes and that you kind of have to hush up a little bit where these things have been around for a really really long time and they are really big and they are really wise - this is very subjective I understand - but a FEEL of the site - it didn¿t have that feel

3;53 RC - it was a teenage LMT site

SS - these guys are still pumping iron

4:00 RC - and the understory is too - huge gaps in there - another remarkable thing about this site compared to others is the very low number of in trees - the in trees are the number we pick up with that gage - our highest board foot stand had 60 in trees - and this had 30, so we got a pretty high board foot score with very few trees

SS - but that is bc we didn¿t take time to scout once we were in there¿..it might be represt. But we could have found some place w/35 or 40 trees in

RC - if we were just have been after the score - which we normally are we could have searched a couple of hours and found something that had twice the board foot volume just by selecting a huge part of this alluvial fan whichi think is about 130 acres in size¿we could have done better - I am almost glad we didn¿t bc now I think we have a more representative sampling of that fan¿5:16 our gross board footage in that acre was 85,500 roughly whichis kind of lower third of the pack for our LMT sites. We have quite a few that are upwards of 100,000 board feet. And again that is bc these trees are so widely spaced

6:14 CJ- t was a pretty tough hike getting there and partof the reason that you guys do this is to bring people to see this kind of thing - is this the kind of place that you would be able to get people - would want to get people ¿..

6:55 SS what we are doing is finding the sites - we do have a commercial trip to help go look for these trees and those - when I get the people on the phone about that I find out about their experience in the woods - then we kind of gage - we have a plurality of places that we want to go so usually we can match the areas we want to go with the abilities of the people that are coming on the commercial trip. this is sort of hybrid thing¿¿7:52 - there are 2 ways to get to this site - for people who would come back here thismight be a site that could be used for an ecot site - depends onthe community at tenakee - prob bring a commercial op out of there¿

8:22 RC - everywhere we go we value the opinions of the people that live nearest to that place ¿

8:38 SS - we are hopeful -one of goals is that we are trying to help - one of the thing that can com eout of this ¿would be local tour operators w/in the communities in their local use area may pick one or 2 sites that everyone in the community feels hey - this could be used by visiting by ecotourists - that would be a site that they would take people to - I think it is going to happen in sitka real soon¿. The tongass is natl forest - and that is one of the beauties of it - it is everybody¿s forest whether you live in FL or NY or CA, NM or AK. Our ultimate goal is a LMT guide to sites that encourage visitation
there is a management plan around them - whichwe would have to work out with the forest service so they are not over visited - that is a - maybe we are dreaming at this point but I don¿t think so long term¿..

CJ - worried about our safety¿

11:00 SS - we were in their living room - we were in their kitchen - we were in their bedroom

11:15 RC - you are always torn btwn wanting to see stuff and wanting to let things know in time to get away, and in that situation¿we were about to step into a situation where we could scan for a quarter mile - ¿¿..

12:00 CJ - does some of that feeling of risk appeal to you in doing this kind of work - is that one of things that draws you to it?

12:12 RC - I think just the fact of living in south east ak for me is just being out in the woods with critters bigger than I am is one of the things I like I guess and it is not that I am a risk junkie and I need the adrenaline high or anything like that ¿..I like being out where there is an intact ecosystem and I am just a part of I and not the largest carnivore

13:06 RC - being in the country of an animal that is so much more powerful and stealthy and aware than I am ¿.. I value getting out of my hominid sense of superiority - just being forced to recognize that I am just another critter out there 13:34

SS - it is imp for me to know that there are places like this LMT site - out there - - it is imp for everyone to know - wilderness in the american mind I think is a very imp concept that is alive and well in myself and values that I am teaching my kids is that there needs to be wild places like this where you have this remarkable habitat and it has just been there for a really long time - and I think part of our effort is to understand it a little more we find we need to do bear score and deer score bc people understand that more than jus big trees 15:00 that is the approach here - unique values here

CJ - a connection btwn the big bears and the big trees - to me in some ways they are similar - they are hard to get to , you can¿t see them, they are cryptic, they are the biggest

15:29 RC- they are endangered by us - both of them - this LMT project is really bringing home for me that connection btwn streams alluvium which is matl deposited by streams, salmon in those stream, the big trees that depend on that depositional environment to grow there, the plants like salmon berry, devils club, stink currant that grow in that type of sub-straight and the bears and the eagles that feed on those things. For me it is becoming the core community of the Tongass . it is the community that exports it productivity to all the surrounding ones - whether it is the eel grass flats that get that nutrient pulse pumped into them in the fall storms or¿¿it is something I am hoping will become more of a public awareness - big spruce, alluvium, devils club bear, eagle, salmon community is really something that¿s been overused by us and is key to the productivity to everything else in our forest 16:56

17:00 CJ - tell me how much you like doing this work?

RC - when sam and matt kirchoff asked me to do this it didn¿t take me long to say I would - I didn¿t realize how profoundly it would restructure my relationship - how I operate in se ak - I would love to do this for another 5 yrs - another decade - spend all summer hunting big trees - it is pretty addicting

17:36 SS - for me it is one of the best things I have every gotten involved with in terms of my own personal - it satisfies a need of doing science. I am a generalist - an aquatic ecologist in my undergraduate work ¿..for me more than anything else it has been meeting the people that this project has attracted. It kind of fulfills a lot of needs¿¿.

18:55 ambi -through 22;22

SAID WITH A LOT OF EMOTION 22:39 SS - I don¿t come out here for the risk - I am not here for the sense of adventure - I feel like we are doing something really good, really important - and I don¿t know what the outcome totally is that is really important . we can say yeah - maybe we will save some stands of trees that might or might not be logged - but I don¿t think that is the really imp thing here - and we may identify some - may come up with a way at looking at some of these ecosystems that helps policy decisions and better policy and better management in these areas that deserve better protection status will get it - but I am not even sure that is the final outcome. And yeah, we may set up some small ecotour operators that will supplement their income by visiting LMT communities - maybe we should start calling it that rather than trees - I think that is maybe where it is evolving right now but I just have this overwhelming sense that we are doing something important. And it is maybe that we are mixing a lot of people into one pot and we have no real political agenda here. we are doing I think really good science. We are trying to drive it by that by what we best know and not stacking tons of PhDs behind us but doing really good citizen science using the experts to help us with our methodology. So I think the story of LMT is still evolving and the final chapter is no where near written. I keep coming out here and putting money and time into this bc it just feels that this could be the most imp thing I do to give something to the understanding of my home - of the Tongass 24:49

26;16 CJ - what would happen if you never found this site - never found it - never marked it -

RC - we need to go back to the map for that - we are right on the edge of 2 land use - it could be that this has some kind of formal protection and it could be in a timber base

SS - I am curious to check where this particular stand is in terms of land status - what if we didn¿t go here - it is too early to know this will be public info as much as it can be - so to know where this site fits into the others it is a little early yet. ¿we are right in the heart of chichagof island - this is an important area¿.there has been a lot of logging around here and it is close to the community of tenakee

27:00 RC - on this GIS map of tenakee inlet prepared by Interain ¿¿ we have whole system of existing and purposed roads ..keyed out in diff colors¿.where we are in upper tenakee there are no purposed roads into that area. It looks like onthis map that the stand we just sampled is one of three very high volume patches and it could be at this point very uneconomical to think about puttin ga road in there to log. But at least part of that stand I believe stands outside of the protected land use designations

28:25 RC - this stand that we just sampled is exactly where it falls in the land use designations is a little bit fuzzy - the only map we have is so small scaled that it is a little hard to tell where that boundary lies, but I believe that at least part of the patch that we were working in yesterday is part of the timber base

CJ - meaning that it could be cut

RC - yes

29:19 Sam going out in a kayak from the shore - VG ambi through 31;00

31:18 talking about depth of water, tides (while we were here there was a 20 foot tide change) - explaining why he anchored where we did - ¿ton of crab pots all around¿¿

33;14 RC - right where those sediments drop off into deeper water there is quite a congregation of mule gulls, bonaparte gulls and marbled murlets all fishing on something

33:53 - birds - recording off of boat - with waves hitting boat through 35:01

35:46 - pulling crab pot out of motor - good ambi/FX -

36:12 boat engine start

38:03 RC - off of this river mouth right where the sediments drop off are about 200 marble murlets with some bonaparte gulls and mule gules - a lot of them are paired up - it maybe nesting adults that are using old growth forest possible just back where we were just working 38:20 pretty amazing thinking about these birds fishing out here - who knows what depths, and then flying back into the big trees and nesting a hundred feet up in the air -

38:37 CJ - what is the relationship btwn the murlets and the forest

38:50 RC - well, the marbled murlet needs a big trees bc it is not a very agile flyer. It can¿t take right angle turns through dense foliage - so what it is looking for in terms of nest site (something slams down on boat deck) is a very large tree w/an open enough canopy that it can swoop right nesting limb. It can¿t bring any nesting material into the tree bc it goes straight from the ocean to that tree - and it is just looking for a tree that has enough moss on it¿that it canhollow out a little murlet tummy size depression in the moss and lay its single egg there. So these adults are feeding their babies fish a hundred feet up in the air on a mossy limb in a big tree - that is what the connection is to the large trees and not much is know - yet - in se AK - exactly what parts of the forest these birds are using ¿. InWA and OR their numbers have plummeted and that is thought to be a comb. W/a prob w/logging and w/catching the birds at sea in fishing nets 40:11

40:20 bird ambi - RC - kitty wick! Kittywick, kittywick¿. More ambi 42;16

42:22 boat - slowing down engine - more birds gulls and murlets - at entrance of river that flows down by the LMT sight BETTER at 45:00 VG ambi through 48:36

49:21 RC - hundreds of these murlets (THIS IS ONLY IN LEFT CHANNEL) when you put these binocs out in the water - almost all paired up. They are almost all adults - they are dull brown plumage. And apparently what is attracting all these fish is schooling sandlance¿.it is the time when the young can get out of their nests and join the adults out on the ocean. 50:00

50:19 starting up engine through 51:09

51:28 boat engine starting talk @ 51:54 when engin changes (slows down) 52:06 slower engine and some talk as engine stops 52:43

53:10 CJ- what can you tell me - we are looking at a mountain side that comes right down to the water and looking at the kind of trees that are there what can you tell me about what has happened here

53:20 RC - looks like it was clearcut up to about 500 feet, right down to the water¿s edge. There was no buffer left. I have a map that I was given by some folks at Fish and Game showing the dates of these cuts and these are all logged in the mid-60s - so about 30 years ago. And it was done from the water. It was A-Frame logging where a barge was brought up against the beach 53:52 - stop bc of wind coming up

done again:

CJ - lit. what you see up there and what it is telling you 54:36 so, when you look up at a hillside like this or mtn side that is coming right into the water - there are diff patterns to the trees and diff kinds of trees - what does that tell you?

54:55 RC - most of what we are seeing here is old growth forest but for quite a ways about ½ a miles it has been clear cut up to about 500 feet

CJ - how can you tell that?

RC - well, it is much shorter and it is a paler green, but w/in that clearcut there is quite a mosaic. There is some lumpy canopies that are red alder that came back in the areas that were most heavily disturbed and then areas that are a little more stable have come back in a mix of spruce and hemlock 55:26 it is only about half of the height of the surrounding old growth trees

CJ - and then when you see a pattern - some of this looks almost like it is triangular even - what does that tell you

55:42 RC - what they have logged here is a combin of coluvial and alluvial fans - in other words fans formed by the motion of water coming down hill and just generally sliding and those have supported the largest forests and those are generally the first places to be logged. This was logged right from the water and no roads lead in and out of this sight. More recently roads have been pushed into this area from ¿¿.. no buffer was left along the beach here. clearcut right to the water. And the current logging practices are to leave more of a protected old growth buffer

56:25 CJ - bc of that you see that the alder - that lighter color and softer looking trees come right down to the water there - and the fact that they are triangular is that they are growing on an alluvial fan and that is the kind of soil and substraight that big trees like and that is where the loggers go

56:44 RC - exactly¿well having just pass through those sights they are horrendous to travel in - downed logges form the previous logging, branches from these spruce trees interlacing fine branches going right down to the ground. So you are on your hands and knees a lot of the time. Really tough to get through. Also, not much forage in there - once that spruce and hemlock closes canopy w/in 20 or 30 years it is so shay that virtually nothing growing on the forest floor beneath them. The alders are a bit different, and that site looks like it has come back at least half in alder which is a little more productive in wildlife but foresters would refer to what has happened here as alder capture. The alder is not the tree they want to log again and it could occupy the site for more than half of the proposed rotation period of 100 years.

CJ - so the alder has captured the site instead of the sitka spruce \

RC - right

CJ- and then it just crowds out the spruce

57:54 RC - the spruce can¿t grow as fast as the alder initially and once the alder has made a canopy the spruce has a hard time coming up through that. It eventually will, but it will take decades. 58:05

58:11 SS - talking about how hard it is to walk through clear cuts - lived in se alaska 12 yrs before hiking through one

CJ - what is it? (in the clear cut areas)

59:58 RC - it varies¿.spruce and hemlock w/in say 30 years there is virtually nothing on the ground except a slash from the logging. It is so shady that not even mosses are growing under there. So it is just needle that are - it is all brown under there and the trees are growing so close together that - and their branches come so far down to the ground that you are often forced down on your hands and knees crawling in there. In the alder I have seen sites that are very productive for wildlife - still pretty hard to get around in. in an alder understory it is a little more open and before the alder leafs out certain plants can grow - ferns, elderberries, so you may have a little more berry productivity. Some alder patches have the combination of the 3 most imp berries to brown and black bears - the salmon berry the stink currant and the devil¿s club. 1:01:02 access is a little diff in those bc they do have the same slash that the spruce and hemlock 2nd growth has 1:01:14

1:01:25 SS - it can bring up an interesting debate - it does provide some habitat for a while and so it gets confusing sometimes if you are trying to say all clearcutting is not good for wildlife - it is for certain periods , just not long term sustaining. So it - there is no easy clear answer to any of this and I think that is an imp thing to keep in mind 1:01:57

1:02:05 ambi in area 1:03:13

** 1:03:27 engine start up through 1:04:22

MOLLY KEMP

1:06:20 walking in woods - Molly and Chris talking - very off mike - walking to garden

1:07:20 MK this is an ex of use of local woods - this is yellow cedar that we milled the boards with chain saw miles from a fallen log - most of it from the edge of the creek right here. it is really extraordinary wood. Yellow cedar is really rot resistant it grows really slowly¿¿.it is kind of open to question what is happening to yellow cedar region-wide. It doesn¿t seem to be - it seems to be on the decline. But from the partic tree that this wood came from - it was on the ground had been there for quite a few years¿we counted the growth rings and some parts of it that were really dense and it was over 100 up to 121 per inch of growth - an incredibly slow growing tree¿.the tree itself was really old.

CJ - so in a sense it was a salvaged piece of wood

MK - this piece was - most of it from that blow down¿it was actually on the edge of a clear cut. The clear cut that is up above the house here that you saw from the water

CJ - do a lot of people do that sort of thing - do they - in this local area - do they find logs that have been blown down, or that are dead and they managed to turn them into something that is valuable¿

1:08:51 MK - that happens and people cut green trees too. The house that we live in was built with green wood but with the hope that on a small enough scale it is not going to devastate the area - you can take a small amount w/out having a huge impact as long as it is in the scale of what naturally occurs. But whenever possible we should try to use salvage things. One of the things that has been interesting in the past is the enormous amount of wood onthe beaches that was lost from rafts of logs going to pulp mills. That is no longer so much evident around here.

1;09:28 CJ - but is there enough of that to provide value-added lively hood for people - if logging is going to dwindle, naturally or purposefully are things like this practical for - to support people - to support local economies.

1:09:55 MK - well I think there are 2 things about that ¿. One of things is what scale of income people demand of expect as a minimum. If your needs are small and you want to live on a low key scale - you know a small scale you know there is definitely room for people to address the cash income needs as long as the rest of system is working here. you can still fish and hunt and count on getting a lot of things that people in the lower 48 have to pay money for - getting them directly. Then there is definitely need to address the need for cash income for rubber boats and medical insurance on all small scale value added produce. And there is probably room for some bigger industry to that would be more in keeping what people expect from our timber industry but that is not really appropriate in a place like tenakee. It is a pretty small town. We don¿t want to be a lot bigger. 1:11:01

1:11:02CJ - but what about outside of tenakee ¿..do you see the logging economy of this region changing and if so what direction is it going to go>?

1:11:52 MK - the diff is whether you have an income now or if you have it come later. And if logging cont at the pace that the forest service and our delegation wanted it to continue it would all be over in a very short period of a decade or more. Anyway. The question is do we have anything left when it is over. And if we hold on to the remnants of the natural system that can support a diverse economy we still have that opportunity to develop diff ways of living and maybe some of the smaller scale timber things could have a chance to survive and grow. But if it is all taken right now to maximize profit for a few corporations than we don¿t have op anymore we are just all out of luck.

1:12:44 CJ - WA state, OR that is what we saw there

1:12:48 MK - that is what we read about and that is where a lot of the folks that came up here to work in the timber industry came from bc it happened there - it was all over and this was the last place to repeat the performance.

CJ - let¿s say that you were in charge for a while¿..what are we going to do w/10,000 unemployed people¿.

1:13;40 MK - I don¿t think I am in the position to answer that but you can look at sitka where a big mill closed - it seemed to take care of itself fairly well. The town has not collapsed. I lived in northern MI when mines closed and I know what a ghost town looks like. Youknow - when suddenly there¿s no income you can really tell it. And every store and every part of the community - and sitka is tougher to blow - but there certainly not in that state of a ghost town - they have a lot of other kinds of employment and it seems to be something that is survivable¿.and it happened now rather than later when there was still some other opp to fall back on (VG bird in bg)¿.1:14:50 what we could see plainly was if we kept going on the path everyone is going to suffer and all the other ops would be lost

CJ - what kind of effect might the LMT proj have on the people who live here - not the tourists¿..

1:15:27 MK - not sure the LMT proj is going to be used¿.in general it has been a benefit to our worries to have the rest of the country aware of what is at stake here and if it is a way to get that message across it is prob a benefit 1:16:02

1:16:28 MK (to Richard) it is a double edge sword - you really love a place and it is a really intense personal connection with a place you want to protect it and if the cost of protecting it is bringing so much protection that it all of the value of it is really lost - that is really hard - it is a hard decision to make - and on top of that there is sort of hopeless fascination with wilderness and there are remnants that aren¿t known, and aren¿t catalogued and are actually you could be surprised and there is some mystery left and there is a rebellion feeling that every last leaf has to be catalogued and mapped and described and known to the whole world, but again if it is choice btwn that and loosing it there is not much choice there. 1:17;18

CJ - that is a real good point - and that is always the dilemma¿.it is not just here¿.what do you do when yo have to put your finger on it to save it? Maybe that isn¿t saving it

1:18:07 MK - oh I don¿ t think there is much question in my mind that loosing that intangible part of what I just tried to express compared to having a kind devastation you have when you look at Cube Cove - it is pretty easy to make that trade off there 1:18;28

1:18:40 CJ - do you think that it is inevitable that old growth is pin pointing and mapped that it necessarily will always be mapped and cut

1:18:53 MK - I think the pressure is going to be on as long as the population of the world continues to increase ¿ what we would like to avoid here and it seems hopelessly idealist - we would like to have a situation where there is just a few fragments with a fence around them that are held off as a museum but we can still live in a part of a functional a whole ecosystem that is intact and I guess personally I guess it is just a holding action - we just hold on to as long as we can for as long as we can bu the overall picture is prob not that optimistic¿.

1:19:41 CJ - idea of wilderness - can we continue to have wilderness - my opin. It is over ¿.what you have here is certainly about as close to wilderness that I have seen - certainly in north am¿..

1:20:29 MK - I think perhaps sometimes we delude ourselves into thinking that there is some left here, but it is truly mysterious in the sense that idea of wilderness unexplored, unexploited - that is the way it has always been

1:20:45 CJ - do you think people need the idea of wilderness?

1:20:49 MK - I do - I don¿t know about anybody else, but it is real important to me.

1:21:18 MK - let¿s go for a walk and AMBI through (some very nice faint birds) 1:22:34

1:22:35 walking away - some talking¿. Through 1:22:59

1:23:39 CJ - we are standing on the beach right out by where you live - tell me whatyou see across there

1:23:45 MK - well directly across from our home is a Corner (?) Bay - it is a logging camp and pretty heavily logged watershed¿.it is an interesting contrast bc to the right is the Katashan watershed which is one of the ones that was protected by the Tongass Timber Reform Act and the result of a lot of effort by a lot of people - real strong ¿.quite a contrast to what is right next to it - a u shaped value with a part cut out of it - the biggest trees¿tend to be concentrated in the valley bottom and that was cut about 25 years ago and then in subsequent entries they went back and took more and more - and you see now how the cuts are reaching pretty high to the tree line, in fact one that is just out of view around the corner is pretty amazing ¿¿I think that partic whole valley has very little left to scrap about there are just a few table scraps left from what was originally on the plate there 1:25:30

1:26:19 MK - (boat in the bg) that is interesting - that is tenakee¿s first experience with cruise boats - we are on the tourism line -

1:26:32 CJ - does it bring money in ? is it worth it?

MK - well, it is interesting - you know, this is a small town and tourism is a big part of what makes the town run - people bringing their pleasure boats to the harbor or coming in on the ferry or coming in on the mail plane - and when this operation first approached people in town, talking about bringing in about 100 people or more at wack. The reaction was pretty much unanimous - it couldn¿t handle it, didn¿t want it and so far they have respected the town¿s wishes and stayed away. It says a lot for the people in town especially who depend on tourist visitor income to make a living¿..so this boat justgoes by town - I don¿t know whatthey say about us when they go by - but it is prob pretty interesting

1:27:50 boat ambi on beach through 1:28:40

1:28:50 walking through garden (higher at points than Marcia by about 5 feet)

MK - my aunt says this is called scrabbling for potatoes when you dig them up before you really ¿it is looked down upon you -

1:30:19 CJ - are they ready for dinner?

1:30:20 MK - uh huh

CJ - the soil looks pretty nice

Mk - you know this soil doesn¿t look like the average garden at all - it is so coarse and gravely. It looks like a beach esp when it is dry. I think that is part of the reason why it does so well bc it drains really well w/all the rain we have¿the only thing we add (to the soil) is seaweed¿.

1:32:17 MK - that is swiss chard and then the purple are cabbage - all the family cabbage plants do really well here. they love this climate. Beets on the end - that is what we are having for dinner in the soup. Carrots of course. Lots of potatoes. They do very well. Broc, lettuce, kale, parsley, parsnips and zukes¿.(talking about why bears don¿t go after potatoes)

1:34:30 ambi @ 1:34;56 good squirrel ambi through 1:34:54

1:36:07 ambi facing ocean - from garden TALKING so no good

1:36:27 ambi facing ocean - in garden - boat in bg through 1:38:42 then another boat - ambi
through 1:39:06

1:39:23 MK - logging was a given¿¿¿¿¿¿.talking about growing up in MI¿¿..1:40:40 I started looking at the clumps in the clear cuts behind the house here and seeing how large those stumps are and how old and realizing that that clear cut isn¿t going to look like - in my lifetime - like anything like it had been - ¿¿¿.1:41:20 right here we are looking at a couple of examples of trees that were left at that time for whatever reason - they are pretty big - and then right over to the east here there is an area CJ - just a matter of 30 yards - MK - see the real dense stand of trees that are ¿.. 10 to 16 diameters in diameter - they are packed in real tight, they are real knotty, and even more than that I realize there is nothing growing on the ground beneath them except a little bit of moss¿¿

CJ - are they of use to anybody

MK - 1:42:16 ¿.as far as the quality in wood if you are interested in wood as a esource for woodworking - it is real poor quality. You have to work very hard to find a piece of wood that doesn¿t have any knots in it and that¿s what is so valuable about the old growth

CJ - talking about old growth (description of what he sees to one side versus the other)

MK - talking about old growth and the years it takes to rejuvenate forest¿. 1:43:50 I think that as far as deer are concerned it is pretty obvious that it is kind of a desert until that amount of time has passed¿when the snow is deep the habitat that they have to have is the big old trees with edibles on the ground 1:44:19

MK - everyone always says how they don¿t want to have logging in their backyard - well our backyard has been logged intensively you can see what it is like to get through a 30 year old clearcut here - you don¿t walk through - you might crawl if you are really ambitious. There are areas in the inlet 1:45:26 the forest service tends to identify that hasn¿t been cut as old growth and I guess in a sense that is true. Some of these trees are very old¿¿1:45:42 you have to kind of hunt to find areas that have big trees - and they tend to be along the river bottoms and they tend to be in the same area where it seems like so much of life is focused along the stream as far as the salmon ¿..1:46:05

1:46:06 CJ - what do you say to people who say yeah we appreciate old growth but also jobs for loggers, mills and we need wood and we don¿t have a sub for it

1:46:29 MK - it is something we deal with on a daily basis bc we use wood products much more directly that a lot of people do - and it all come down to a question of scale. I think it is possible to use some of the products form the forest w/o it being of the expense of everything else - you can have it all right now or you could spread out your use over - thinking of hundreds of years instead of thinking in 5 years or 10 years . and try to balance what we want right now is leaving something for the next few generations 1:47:15 PLANE overhead

1:47:16 plane flying overhead

AGAIN - 1:48:29 CJ - what do you say to people who say we need wood we need jobs for people, we need to provide resources¿.

1:49:07 MK - there is a diff btwn using the resource up and using a little bit of at a rate that can be sustained indefinitely - the quest of scale is the diff btwn cutting a tree or a few trees and cutting a whole watershed and to cont at that pace - it is all over in a few short years and in contrast we would like to see it be poss to sustain our way of life and make that same possibility available for people indefinitely 1:49:58 - PLANE overhead - MK - you can see this is not a wilderness we have a pretty constant stream of planes and boats and helicopters

1:50:27 general ambi - boat passing by - a lot of rustling of someone¿s jacket¿not great ambi through 1:52:01

1:52:59 MK - the sumps here have horizontal gouges in them they are spring boards where the hand loggers stood on to cut big trees with a 2 man saw - this logging was done around the turn of the century
1:54:38 (answering when this was logged) around the turn of the century - you can see the spring board marks on the stumps where the hand loggers put a board to stand on. They were using 2 man hand saws and it is really hard - surprisingly diff around areas along the beach - areas that have not been logged. There is a lot of evidence - to start to think that this is what the forest really looks like when there are these packed in small trees and very little growing on the ground. But it is very diff than the real thing

1:55:27 CJ - you get a certain mixture in an OGF (old growth forest) ¿¿.. an explanation as to why the structure is so diff in a clear cut

1:56:14 MK - my answer is that there is a diff - it is even-aged in the old growth forest there is a dynamic of old trees and young trees - and old tree dies and it is replaced by young trees where as when you start with level here they all grow up together and make this solid canopy that shades out everything bellow it and then it takes a long time for any of those trees to get large enough that their falling provides holes that permits another tree to start growing 1:56:49

CJ - what we see here is clearcut that is 90 yrs old or so ¿.(describing what he sees) - no real plants

1:57:16 MK - none of the forage plants that the deer rely on¿so I would like to look at young clear cut just to haveanother perspective

CJ - ok, let¿s go have a look

1:57:33 walking to young old growth - loud eagles in bg?

*****1:57:59 VG ambi - eagles !! 1:59:09 and squirrels

2:01:05 MK - on the edge of the clear cut - this area was cut sometime in the 60s - so it is 30 some years old - when I first came to tenakee about 20 years ago it was still about knee to thigh high berry bush and plants like that and in the yrs following that it has been grad taken over by the regenerating spruce and hemlock and as you can see they are very dense they are so packed together it is just about imposs to get through them. I am not at all shy about difficult terrain I would be glad to demonstrate that PLANE

2:03:30 CJ - ¿you are no strange to bushwacking - and this is really thick for humans what about animals - is it too thick for deer to go through?

MK - well, there is no reason for deer to want to go through except for their attempts to go fro mthe alpine to the beach bc there is no forage. The trees are so densely packed that there is just nothing for them to eat and it will be like that for a long long time. Whenever people talk about the issue of clear cutting and they say - oh it grows back ! don¿t worry - look at how green it is look at how lush it is - I always really want to take them on a walk and see what it is like to live in these things - old clear cuts they are like the blank places on the map. You don¿t use them you can¿t get through them. In my life time this is not going to be a usable place to hunt or do anyt of things that are a part of life in tenakee. It is pretty perm. Change in human lifetimes and it is really pretty rough going

CJ - how rough?

2:04:43 MK - maybe you will hear what it sounds like for him to come through (Cj talks over her - NG)

CJ- Richard?

2:04:50 RC - I am 40 feet away from you - something like that - the first step is kind of a tough one - I am about 8 feet off the ground and I think I am going to have to go down under a log or two move 5 feet towards you [MK laughing - very softly - in bg - can be heard¿.]¿there is like one log perpendicular to you and then after that ¿oh man, I should have worn my rain gear! There is another one that is one a diagonal - I am on the ground now - I am coming towards you as fast as I can [boat engine in bg , some rustling but not great] RUSTLING 2:05:32 - 2:05:40 / 2:05:41 Upturned root wad here - rustling 2:05:48

2:05:49 CJ congratulations!

2:06:09 - 2:07:07 ambi through - some heavy breathing from RC, and some mouth noise¿.NG

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