ML 138478


Interview :27 - :00 Play :27 - More
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Donna Wilke  







Makah Tribe  

Interview 31:40 - 1:10:53 Play 31:40 - More
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Frank Smith  







Makah Tribe; Totem pole/canoe carving  

Interview 1:10:54 - 1:40:03 Play 1:10:54 - More
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Jeff Howatte  







Makah Tribe  

NPR/NGS Radio Expeditions
16 Jul 1997

  • United States
    Clallam County
  • Neah Bay
  • 48.36556   -124.61556
  • Rural
  • Stereo
    Sampling Rate
  • 48kHz
    Bit Depth
  • 16-bit
    Equipment Note
  • Stereo=1; Decoded MS stereo

Olympic Coast NMS LOG
DAT # 5

Reporter: Elizabeth Arnold (EA)
Interviews with: Donna W,ilke (DW)
Frank Smith
Jeff Howatte

00:44 DW -I have kind of lived in Neah Bay most of my life. I went to grade school here, I was raised here and
then about the 6th grade I moved to the city, to Seattle, I went to 1 yr of grade school [WIND PROBLEM, START OVER]
1:49 -I was born here at Neah Bay (EA: uh huh) and I lived most of my childhood here with my great grandparents, my mother passed away when I was a baby so I lived with my great grandparents and learned a lot of traditions and sort of the old ways of religion and they never really converted over to the other side so to speak. So I kind of learned about berries and the natural way of life, I don't recall a lot of it. Then I went to the city. My father took me to me to the city when I was in the 6th grade, and then I went to jr. High and high school, and graduated from h.s. in Seattle. As soon as I start having children and I got married I came back here. And raised the children out here out on Neah Bay -out on the ocean side. Away from the villages, where we own property. So my kids had a really nice up bringing, close to nature, and my son has been working with the national -(EA -national marine sanctuary) marine sanctuary -and he is the natural resources director. And I think a lot of his felling about the nature of things comes from the way he was brought up.
And -so he has been in full support of this program, and it has been our philosophy to try to live with nature as much as we can even in these modern times and kind of let nature do its thing and we just live with it and try to get by the best we can. And that is really the basic philosophy of our people for thousands of years. In these modern times it is not so easy to do. You have to make way for housing and more people and more people -so you have to make room. And unfortunately when you have to make room for people, the animals suffer from that -but having the marine sanctuary here is an equal protection. It is like they help us protect the wildlife -the wild birds -and then there is also a balance that has to be maintained, Sometimes they over -one species over populates bc of the over protection sometimes. So you need to go in there and kind a level that species out so it is not dominating the chain -the food chain

4:25 EA -but, you know, did the sanctuary seem like a new idea? It seems to me that you all were treating this area like a sanctuary all along ¬
4:33 DW -oh, absolutely. We have always fished leaving -you know we make a living offit -we sell the fish for money, but that pays for clothing and all of the necessities oflife. But also we also fish for eating (good birds in the bg). So it is ¬but we have never been to the point where we go out there and catch all ofthe fish and just leave them -today there is a big problem with the fact that you can only fish certain size in a specie ifyou bring them in you get penalized for that -so a lot offish have to go over board that are very worthwhile eating. We are still working on that problem of possibly having a tribal boat go out and pick up the fish that they can't eat and bring it home to have it smoked or kippered or something for sustenance.

5:35 EA -Makah have been taking things out from the sea for thousands ofyears (DW -uh huh) and yet all ofthose things have always been replenished.

DW -right.

EA -so in a way, they have been managing this-

DW -the natural managers -we are the care takers. That's how I feel. I have studied -I went to the University ofWashington, and I decided to take as many courses on Native American studies that I could take. Bc I grew up being ashamed ofbeing an Indian and the word Indian itself -I don't know ifyou have ever looked it up in the dictionary -I don't call myself an Indian I call myself a native person from this country, but there are a lot ofnegative things about that -so as I child I thought it was bad to have dark skin, it was bad to talk my language, it was bad to think -in fact there were a couple oftimes I shared things in school with teachers that I got into a lot oftrouble for bc I wasn't supposed to be thinking that way. And then I would come home and try to talk to my great grandparent about it and they would say well, you can't be saying these things to those people bc they will take you away from us and put you in a boarding school and we will never see you again. So I kind of had to live on a double standard. I had to behave one way when I was with the Anglo people, and then I could behave my natural way when I was with my own people. 7:05

7:06 EA -in a way, do you see this sanctuary as helping to preserve your culture?

7: 12 DW -I do. We are working with the sanctuary in a way that they are helping to keep a balance of how many species are out here and better out here now -and try to keep a balance ofthat. And you know, I would like to see more participation in the program by Makah people -more participation and more students wanting to go into this area and coming back here and working with the sanctuary during the summer (some trampling noise in the bg) .

7:50 EA -why do you think that would be a good thing? Why does this help?

DW-well, bc it is good for our youth to see that -to see them working with people from the sanctuary -to see that they are part of that -you know, it is kind oflike growing up -seeing -what you are see when you are growing up -you attach yourself to what you might be. And a lot of us have gotten farther and farther away from that, the natural part oflife -bc of computers and technology and science and all ofthat has taken us offto other fields that make more money. You know -so I see a need to see
more ofour youth working with the sanctuary.

8:36 EA -So much ofwhat is out there is a part of the Makah culture _I mean you go to the museum and everything is about-

DW -the sea -the ocean -everything -our whole life depended on _ still depends on _ the ocean. When we signed the treaty, one thing that the chiefs asked for was you can take the land but leave us the ocean, and a lot of those people didn't understand that _ how could they say that, and we actually own the land all the way to lake crescent _ I don't know if you are aware ofthat but, and actually it was beyond that before, but we claimed that at the time. There were other tribes that we moving into the area. And we just relinquished it all, just to be able to have complete freedom to do what we wanted on the ocean. But soon that came to an end. It wasn't even what _a hundred years. They signed the treaties in 1855 and the last whale hunt was in 1902 _ so it was
what -57 years -they completely took away all ofthe natural promises they made _ so it was quite a devastating blow.

9:58 EA -Do you see the sanctuary program as a step back towards the way it should

10:03 DW -I see it helping. If they are strong enough to do that, and they have enough support out there -people supporting them money to support them, bc it takes a lot of money to run these boats up and down and check everything and all the other things -the scientific things that have to be done, the studies. But if the govt can't support it it would have to go independent and I don't know ifit would be able to draw (bird in bg) enough from the independent corporations or organizations that would support it (talking in bg) and I think that would be a shame if the govt every let
go ofthese kind of programs.

10:47 EA -what do you think most people think about it?

10:49 DW -I think -we have never actually done a survey but there has never been any protests -and there are always protests out here (EA -for everything!) yeah _for every little thing. Every little thing we do. And no one has ever really protest the sanctuary. And I think it is because it is a natural part -the way we have always naturally have been. You know -... it is something we have always done _you know, some one comes a long and says was are going to help out -that is pretty good.

EA -tell me a little bit about what you do _ 11 :26 DW -I am a land planner. My job is to identify pieces ofland especially now, for housing, for business development. Unfortunately we live in a marsh -we live in wet lands. And the mtns come down almost to the sea so there is very little land to develop, and what land that is developable is what the environmentalists consider a marshland or a wet land, so we have to go through this long process in trying to get around that and drain some of the land -but then there has been roads built with out culverts that have caused a lot of marsh land that was worse then it actually was -and logging roads that have been built and it traps the roads when it rains, and it has no way to get out so it has turned a lot of land that was valuable at one time into marsh lands. And that is just poor planning. So what we are planning -what my position is now -I am the chairman of the land planning committee and we review every request that comes to the council, it comes to us, and ifthe tribal council wants (bird in bg) a certain piece ofland looked at -for the development of such for anything business, or housing track or something ofthat sort -then we review it -we call it environmental ¬we have an environmental person here -it goes to the army corps ofengineers. They come out and look at it and see ifthat is something that could be built there and even if was drained, is it just going to continue to seep. Is it something that was from the rain coming down or that is coming up from the ground -(EA -so more management) better management, yeah. 13: 10 -so we are learning -I am learning and I think I am in a position that -I am very happy in my position. I have been on the tribal counsel, I have been the director public relations for the museum, I have done quite a few things for the tribe. I have been the senior citizen director, I have been working for the head start program, I was mental health counsel for the clinic, and I most happy right here. Bc I know that in this position I can help build a future.

13:40 EA -where did you grow up? Here?

DW -here.

EA -but where?

DW out at Silyaz(?) beach. On the other side of here there is a white sandy beach and it is called Silyaz beach and my great grandparents -my great grandfather owned the land and I inherited it and now my children all live there with me. They all have their own homes, so I just have to look out at certain times ofthe day and holler at my daughter ifI need anything. -[laughter]

14: 11 EA -do you remember your grandparents talking to you about whaling or the sea or -uses ofthe land

14:24 DW -well, my great grandmother used to take me with her when she would get herbs and roots and berries for people that were sick. She was actually a doctor -a medicine woman. She delivered babies she took care of the sick -if they had a cut or physical pain. She would help take care ofthem. She did take care ofthem. She made her rounds around Neah Bay every week. She would go one way the first part
of the week and then she would go the other way the next part of the week and she would visit every home that people were sick in and she would care for them. And then my great grandfather was a prophet and a different kind of healer. They would have their ceremonies to do healings like taking evil spirits or bad thoughts out ofyou. So you could think more pure. So the 2 of them together were great teachers but they had 2 completely different occupations, but in modern times today they will say -oh, they were both medicine people, well yeah. It is easier not to explain it. But I learned a lot from her -mostly her -and then my great grandfather told me how life began, how we came on to this earth, or how we came to be a part of the land -not so much the earth but the land -and I explained that to my 18t grade teacher and I was called an atheist and a heathen and a pagan child, and I didn't know what any of these things meant. So I went home and I asked my grandmother, I was really in tears, and that is when she told me that you can't tell these people anything that we tell you. 16:05 It is a secret -or you are going to end up in one of these schools and we will never see you again. So I learned not to do that. I learned a lot of things from them and I am just now starting the last couple of years when there seems to be a more open and accepting or curiousity about the native american people and what happened to them. We are still around and now we are identified as just having casinos [laughter] when there is actually a lot more. But I have just began in the last couple of years I have been going out and doing -performing my tribal songs that were given to me. And promoting -raising money for the affiliated tribes and also for this tribe -touching base with foundations and letting them get to know us. Putting on a performance for them so they can see not just our reading writing side but our academic but we also still have part of our culture, our dances, and our stories.

17:20 EA -And I know that songs and stories are sometimes very closely held so I don't want to be intrusive, but don't some of the songs and some ofthe stories involve whales and sea otters and creatures of the sea.

17:38 DW -especially octopus

EA -octopus?

DW -octopus, yeah. And when -a lot of the legends you will find, after you start going through them that legends are a way of disciplining the children and when I was a little girl the most fun I had was to go on the beach right at dawn -I mean dusk -and the tide is way out and jump on the sand bc it lights up bc it has the phosphorus at certain times ofthe yr so we would wait for that. There would be a whole mess ofus kids down there on the beach on neah bay -downtown neah bay and jumping on the sand and letting it light up. Well, my grand mother -great grandmother had to have me in before dark. That was just a rule. So if I was out after dark -which I very seldom went against her wishes. But -something like that you just want to stay out a little bit longer -so I came out and Arnie, my cousin, came running out and said my great grandma was standing out at the road yelling for me ... I went home and that night she told me the story about the giant octopus. And I was so terrified I was crawling beneath the covers and she said now you see what is going to happen to you the next time you stay out after dark [laughter] I never stayed out after dark! Again as long as I was with you. A lot of those stories had to do with that kind ofthing, and this was a story about a little girl that went out in the little bay where she lived and she was going to catch some fish for her grandma and she didn't have anybody's permission to take it out. She sneaked it out, a little canoe. And she started catching fish out there -and she got so carried a way that first she looked around and it was dark. So she had to start paddling back. she knew she would be In trouble. Well, on the way back all of the sudden the boat stopped and she is trying to paddle and paddle and the boat go anywhere. And she looks around the boat and there is a big tentacle hanging over the back of the boat. so she takes a gaff hook on there and she hits the tentacle and it lets go and another one comes over the other side and another side ¬and starts rocking the boat until all ofthese fish that she went out to get her grandma were dumped overboard. And by that time people were coming out to get her -so she barely got saved from this giant octopus, bc right after she got done with the fish she was going to eat her. .. And she had nothing to show for all ofthat work and being such a naughty girl

20:27 EA -resource management all over again ... so you do songs? Do you go out? Have you been performing?

DW -uhhuh.

EA -that is great.

20:35 DW yes. I was given some wonderful songs from my family. Originally my great grandmother was from Ozette, and from one ofthe chief whale harpoon families. We have probably the last songs from Ozette that are still alive today. Relatives have been keeping them for us and have been performing these songs for us and now they want to do a change of hands and say ok it is time for you guys to start taking back your -and doing your songs and your dances. So -we have got a big job in front of us; to start learning these songs and I am learning them already. I was a jazz singer for 10 years in Seattle so it is quite a switch!

EA -it is a bit different.

DW -they are different.

EA -beautiful, beautiful. But not like jazz.

DW no -[laughter]

EA -I don't want to keep you too long -have you gone out to Cape Flattery trail?

DW yes. A couple of times.

21:42 EA -do you think it is sort of a spirtual place -or is that just me?

DW -yes, very. No -it is very spiritual, and it is especially spiritual when there is nobody there. You can feel the environment. It feels so good to be there and it is a nice feeling. It is not a scary feeling, but it is certainly a very powerful feeling ¬wouldn't you aggree? Or do you? Some people are scared of spirits!


22: 12 EA -well 1 am sure for you you probably think about your great grandmother ¬collecting herbs and berries [DW -uh huh]. There must be a sense of connectedness that maybe 1 don't have but 1 certainly feel there.

DW -uh huh. 22:28 -an anthropologist would come to town to write books about the Makahs when my grandparents were young and the absolutely would not talk to them. And that was for the very reason that they figured if they had out any of this ¬these sacred things that they knew into print that it would take some of the power away from them. Some how. Or, the power would get into the wrong hands and be abused. So, a lot of things that you read about the history of Neah bay in olden times is very scant on the spiritual side of it. It is
just more on kind of how we dressed, how we looked, that kind of thing. 23: 13

EA -done way 1 can get a copy of your singing is there?

DW -oh you might ... guy in Portland, OR asked me to be on his CD which will be out in September his name is Charles Littleleaf He is recording for Pond Productions in Portland, OR..... nice people ... .I will be the only singing on the entire tape. He is a flute player. A very spiritual, beautiful player -and the one song that 1 will sing is my great grandmother's love song 24:07

EA -do you sing accompanied or unaccompanied?

DW -he will background me with the flute and then we will have some other sound effects -but normally 1 sing by myself with just a rattle ... 1 have no recording of that yet ... 1 have only been doing this for 2 years maybe and 1 haven't really taken it serious until someone said that will sound really good with a flute bg -and then he said 1 am offering you an opportunity (crow in bg) ... 25: 17 -the boat up and there would be fish that were like as long as we were and bigger than us. 1 mean they brought slabs of fish in here that were 90, 125 Ibs salmons. You would never see anything like that. And they would just be laying on the bank. 25 or 30 of those great big slabs and the boat would be all weighted down, trying to come in the mouth of the river and they would have to weight bc if the tide was out they couldn't get in bc the boat was so weighted down with fish. It was right in here. They would be swimming around the mouth of these 2 rivers. This river and the Sooes river.

EA -salmon?

DW -salmon. Like you wouldn't believe.

EA -right out here?

2:59 DW -yeah. There is a bay out here. It is called Makah Bay. And this is the mouth of the Waatch. And then the mouth of the Sooes (Tsoo-Yess river) is on the other side of the Bay, and that is where the salmon would run up these 2 rivers

26: 12. Then this river became contaminated so they quite coming up here. But they are returning bc we are cleaning everything up again.. taking the sewer out of the river and cleaning it all up and finding other ways to deal with it.

26:34 EA -that is another reason why people like the sanctuary -the oil spill stuff too

26:38 DW -and the sanctuary has certain rules and that they are very astute on and those have to be followed and its easy for us -piece of cake, we are wondering. But then I notice like people in Port Angeles are frighten to death of that sanctuary might come up that far, and that is bc they have privileges that they have been doing that they are not supposed to be -I don't know .... one advantage I see to that if the sanctuary would move to that area is that it might make Victoria and Vancouver Island be more conscious about what they are doing, so -they are contaminating the straits 27:21

EA -yeah, they are thinking about doing that -making a whole Northwest Straights Sanctuary ..... how'd you like those cows coming down ..... .

lots of distant gulls

DW -you know whay they are doing that? There is feed -lots of tiny little fish and the salmon follow the feed ...

ambi from above interview ...

28: 15 -ambi, but faint talking in bg -good laughing gulls, but talking in bg

29:08 car door slam, 29;19 car door slam

29:30 -better ambi of area, but plane overhead (faint)

30:27 wind picks up a bit

31 :08 good gulls close by (but plane still in bg) ambi through 31:36


32:26 FS -I am making a totem pole, that's all

EA -is this cedar?

FS -how do you decide what cedar works and what cedar doesn't work?

32:47 FS -mostly the wood has to be fairly clear -grain, straight grain in order to make a totem pole -canoes, the old guys were telling me that they used knoty wood and no real straight grain wood. But for totem poles you want just as straight as you can get it. It make sthe work easier.

EA -what -the knots you would hit the knots wouldn't you, [FS: uh hum], and that would be hard. Do you go out and pick a tree ifyou are going to go out and work on a canoe?

33 :39 FS -yeah. Some yes. I used to work on the trees in the woods, you know? The old guys here made canoes years back. But I guess the museum looked through some ofthe old grounds (cars passing in bg) back in timber woods??? And they found where they killed the trees (hard to understand -) they would go above the swell but ... get above it and they would follow the tree up -I don't know how one guy did but ... but they get away from that swell, but I imagine that some ofthe hollow trees and -

EA -when you were carving (someone screaming in bg) a canoe in the woods how do you get it down? It was pretty heavy wasn't it?

FS -no. they are not too heavy. I made one out here and they are fairly light, and I had my 2 son in laws drag it in -they used a rope on it and just (describing how it was done) ... fairly easy to drag, come out ofthere pretty fast.

EA -how did you learn to do this?

FS -other people -I guess that is the way all the time. You see someone else do it and try and do it yourself I think that you can learn that by the book but I don't know how -I guess it has been done -they teach it in some ofthe schools but I don't know ifyou could teach everything. Most ofthat stuff is all picked up as you go along, and it is a life time ofwork. I have been doing this for maybe 60 years now. So, it -I don't think anyone learns at all. There are a lot ofthings I don't know.

EA -even after 60 years?

36:58 FS -uh hum EA -where do the designs come from? How do you know what you are going to do on a totem or a canoe

37: 14 FS (children in bg) that is another thing that is hard to say. (cars in bg) the Indian designs is all patterns -they are just laid out different (people in bg) -and it is not a (coughing) -I have people asking me about the story -they say totem poles are supposed to be stories. But I don't know about the story -I never try telling a story ¬there are lots ofguys that tell stories -guys all over the place that tell stories -and doing this work there are no stories. Or I don't try telling stories. Other people will come along and tell stories on these totem poles that I do. 38:41 I have seen a girl in Cloud bay -she bought one of the carvings that made and ?? it home. And somebody told her a story one night -what the thing meant and I kept telling her that I didn't make no -it is just hard work (hardware?). anyway, she was crying you know, bad story I guess I don't know -but I never tell stories on any ofthese work. I do the work (car starting up in bg) -but I was doing a job for this school one time and the school superintendent -he was a kinda blowing me off -telling these ladies -ladies come back there and they asked me about the work -well, they were talking about totem poles being like books. Said you can read them -I told her I don't do that -all I do is just the art work and that is it. And the superintendent walked by and he stopped, he listened to me tell the young ladies and after they left he told me you don't ever want to do anything like that anymore. Ifthey come and ask for a story on that totem pole you tell them a story. I don't care what you tell them you just tell them a story. I don't know -ifI have to do that maybe I might as well quite this kind ofwork -ifI have to tell a story on something that I don't know no stories about. But I was telling -that is all it was -just plain Indian art (car passing in bg) -41 :25

EA -what's wrong with that?

FS -[laughter] yeah, that is what I was wondering, but he said

41:32 FS -he said in his experience, he said people want to know, want to hear something, he said that he was .. an elk hunting guide down here in the? area. and they, they asked him questions about the signs they'd seen. and he said he couldn't tell them anything, he said another guy had come through and has asked him about the signs and he had everything to say exactly when the elk was through there, and he said that guy was a head man among the guides after that but that was his reason for wanting me to tell the story he said b/c people want to hear something

EA-well they see what they think are figures and they want it all explained (FS uh-huh)

42:44 FS -there's guys that can tell stories on anything ... i don't like to have people tell me that i have to tell stories. and i never studied, say thunderbird this year will be about thunderbird this year there are indian stories about the thunderbird there will be stories about thunderbird all across the country...and some guy asked me about doing something about the circle of life among the makah, he asked me ... well i asked him to tell me what could we call the circle of life among the makah and he said something that had to do with their beliefs or something that has to do with their food and the people themselves and i thought about that what the guy said and they were doing a job at the school on the gymnasium at the time just being built and they put some money towards artwork, well i was urn working with the architect he wanted something on the roof and then i carved the whales and the thunderbirds ... two thunderbirds, two whales and then i carved a man that's that's the one that sits in the senior citizens building w/ cone hat and figured i'd donate that to the communities all they wanted was more carvings for the fence and roof but then they wouldn't do that ... council if they'd put it up as the circle of life for the makahs ... but i sold it to them

47:17 EA -when you think about the carving a whale (how do you do it?)

47:54 its all just laid out on the wood, its all dimensions are laid out are all just ... like here your bird--1/3, 1/3, 1/3 --you just layout the work that's going to be done on each part

EA -you must like doing it if you've been doing it for 60 yrs?

FS -sure i like it

48:50 EA -my wife was the one that put me up to it see we got married in 1939 tail-end of the gr. dep. jobs, there wasn't any jobs, you could get a job for a dollar a day but couldn't feed a family on a dollar a day--carving totem poles you could get 5 dollars a day ... started carving small totem poles same thing over and over made good practice ...

what about canoes are you still working on a canoe?

yea i got one up in the woods that i've been trying to get out for 20 years so that its ... the reason for not getting it out is the well its a slow job when i started on it there's a doc ...he's practicing he was a pretty good friend he asked me to do some work for him he had 4 thousand dollars ... told him i'd like to do a canoe and i though i could just drop everything and do it ... asked him if i could trade off to something else asked if i could repay him so i showed him what i could give him for 1500 he donated it to the museum, but i thought i'd get that canoe finished but now this failing health it looks like i could...

54:15 EA -can you show me a tool that you use, just so we get a good idea

shifting equip. sound gets kind of funny mic sounds like going in and out on some first moments, but fx of moving tools is pretty (54:39--50 good.)

sound of woodcutting-¬

56:00--57:15 metal hitting metal sounds, coughing a little bg talking.

FS talks about canoes, wanted job doing that, but they wanted someone wi expo but off-mic, more about makah and canoes ...but nvg ... about 8 minutes more of FS talking--but ng.

1:08:30--1:09:19 ambi., occasional car, not much fx.

saying goodbyes. walking out to car.

1:10:54 PRG 7 at marina.
1:12:00 middle of town ea walking with jeff to dock taking at the
end of pier. fx of birds, wind and a distant foghorn. something rolling away guy with wheel barrows for fish 1:14:00-ish.***good fx of wheel barrow.
water dripping
1:16:00 ea so how long has this been in dev.?

1:16:jh -well my 1st knowledge of this was when I was 13 years old in 1965 my uncle quit as ... chairman of the tribe at the time ... and he came back with plans from a meeting he had attended in seattle with the army corp of engineers looking for funding for breakwater to build inside the harbor here for uh ... like i mentioned those northeast winds that get so bad here in the winter and uh the process inv. wi army corp is a five year cycle and they look at your economic indic. and if you get to the point where your cost-rate benefit is 1:1/2 ...1990 we were successful b/c the way the fleet changed the value of the boats rose ...

ea -so you really try to build up a place where both sport and comm fisherman come or is it pretty much sportfisherman?

jh the -well its a commercially designed marina but sport business ... we really app.

1:18:34(ea¬ nms¬ help or hurt?)

1:l8:xx jh -oh it hasn't hurt us at all in fact we were the first tribe to get involved with them during the leg phase and the back at the hearings in Wash dc we contributed substantially to the comments on regarding the safe protection of the makah treaty rights and their usable and accustomed fishing grounds. our gr go south to handrock n of la Push and extend out some forty miles and the sanc is w/i that same boundary. they of course only go around the corner to cutlet point and we extend our fishing area all the way to crescent bay area.
ea -so you all were involved but was it something that you wanted?

1:19:27 jh -i wasn't involved w/ that early on it was just one of those leg things coming down the pike and we better get your comments in we're a progressive tribe so that we decided to put our best effort in so that we would at least protect of fishing and treaty rights

(ea -doesn't hurt fishing rights, does it?)

1:19:59 jh -no,it doesn't at all in fact what it does is one of the gripes with people this is a case where its better to have that kind of protection. we have a very fragile ecosystem here that is subject to all sorts of diff activity, for instance the pacific rim trading people allover this whole pacific ocean coming in and out of here there's 10,00 transits a year of for and us vessels 2000 tankers that's two a day or more. in fact we were commenting today while i was out on the other pier, looking out there's arco coming in arco coming out and those are the ones that pose the highest risk b/c of the amt of product that they carry both going out of here w/ their bunkers loaded and where they head in coming down from valdez they come w/i a couple of miles we call duncan rock and if they lost power, lost steering, had a bad wind it would be another acc waiting to happen so far we've been lucky there have been times .... its one of those cases where i welcome them (nms) they've been right there with us

(ea--so nms helps)

jh -its good for the whole country...

ea -so you think its a good thing?

1:22:24 jh -we're all partners out here

(ea -sounds off mic ...asks about oil vessels being like a silent threat, have you exp what its like there to have a spill? do you think about it? nice but quiet in comparison to jh)

1:22:59 jh -i got involved right after the ten maru(?) in fact i was out there fishing on a long-line the day that collision occurred, about 25 miles south and west ...the chinese ... (explains circumstances) confused set of circumstances, the result of course was a collision... spilled about 280-230 thousand gallons of bunker on our reserv. our usual accustomed fish. gr. and it was a major effort to get that cleaned up i got involved in the tail end of that on some assess work but on that i didn't get to be there the whole time but saw what it took and since then became invol. in wi this marina project here and one of my duties was helping dev better strategic plans for oil spill response out here some of that involv. the uh major rescue tug that we want just like they get from port angeles that go all the way to the refineries and uh anacortes they got two of them and we don't get anything out there there's 75 miles that ... those vessels before they get an escort need to do something about that ... we want as good as of protection as they have in puget sound and we're not getting it.

ea -do you think the sanc might help?

1:25 :03 jh -well we've tried now they've been with us ev. step of the way with the task force people we all were there with and it was one of those cases where big industry really did a job, they can afford to spend ev day in back wash dc lobbying these efforts and we can't--we just need more resources to be able to do that

1:25:24 ea -what do you think about the whole idea of a marine sanc. does it make sense to you?

1:25:35 jh -act i'd except for what they had in fl i'd never really considered or never even knew that they existed and urn it wasn't until i get involved that i could understand what these people were trying to do it was like an educa. they were willing to help us and we were willing to sit down and meet on these things rather than some of these problems we've had to go up against state govt. where we couldn't get them to do anything unless we kicked their ass in court and then judges telling them you better do something about it and then, unfortunately sometimes that's what it takes

ea -this is more of a partnership?

jh -yea--yea

1:27:00 jh -i'm on the sea otters side.

ea you're on the sea otter's side!** not on the sea urchin's side?

1:27:06 jh -well there's an industry that's developed allover the west coast and alaska where the divers come in and they take the sea urchins. well, they're saying well the sea otters are coming and taking their food well the sea otters got eliminated b/c of their value in the fur trade about 100 yrs ago and it wasn't their fault and so now they got reintroduced they're coming back i think they are just beautiful to watch i think they're lovely little creatures and here these guys have only been at this 3/4 years i've been diving out here for 25 years and i've seen sea urchins some years like 15/13 years ago these things don't just sit around they can crawl around they'll go where the food is otherwise they'll starve to death or they won't be able to reproduce, its a biological thing.

1:28:05 es you've been involved in diff aspects of this-¬

jh -i got involved w/ northwest indian fishing org ... 1986 is when i left them.

1:28:23 ea -how would you characterize the makah in terms of thinking about the resource over the past

1:28: 33 well, when i was involved w/ management we were in a better position for a time because they had the whole fish commission into 5 sep. treaty areas which is what happened in 1855/6 when isaac stevens had this whole set of treaties made and then what happened in about 1986 they had a reorganization and they changed their tack instead of the rep. across the board being from the 5 maj treaties areas into drainage areas and regional type of areas and i guess to them it made sense but for me i needed more protection for my fishery out here cause i was subject to the mercy of weak stock management from puget sound, weak stock management from the southern coast of washington and we're a mixed stock fishery we don't have a big glacier river here ... and we rely on that we rely on everybody contributing to the stocks of fishery and managing their resources upland so that the logging practices are upheld stricter and the dev practices have got more thinking behind them. you think about how much thinking was put behind. this marina here with all the resources we want to protect i would just hope that when other people when they go out to build something like this they think that too.

1:30:31 ea what's it like when you're looking out and you can see above the breakwater here on a really busy day?

1:30:14 jh ... this place is just a-buzz with boats coming and going that road you just came in on when you have to .... they're going to neah bay they're going to catch a fish.

more description of traffic on the water

1:31:40 jh ... very often there's boats from outbound lane which is north of the canadian/us border and they have to turn on two lanes of traffic and that's where it really gets confusing because that area gets so congested, we're just not, we're waiting for a collision to happen and i wish that we were better prepared so to avid that i think the strategy should be to push that sep. scheme so that it's a little bit further west so you don't have that one small area tying up so many lanes and its a navigation thing and we've looked at it and had some smart people looking .... the problem is that ev working off of charts and you need to get ev chart updated if you change a separation scheme like that you have to publish a notice to all the mariners in the world and you've then got to reprint a bunch of charts they say that its a hard thing to do but its still harder to clean up oil on the beach once you have a collision

ea do you think that this marina is going to take off?

1:34:23 in a way the makah have been linked to the sea for a long time and this is another sort of generation in that in terms of the whole marina

1:35:01 jh yep, ... (explanation of cycle of fishing.--seasonal fish)****************--> 1:36:06 we have people working out in the water all the time out here and its one of those cases that we're lucky we've worked hard and i just wish i could get these guys some more fish somehow , they've got to pay their mortgage bills its not a free? for anybody...

chatting about pile driving ... (?) etc ...and about building cape flattery trail

1:40:38 ambi from into bird fx in bg, foghorn, talking in bg

1:41 50 the walk back, walking, bell in bg, birds, voices in bg.

people making fun of the microphone

1:44:25 stopdown.

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