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Todd Jacobs  

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Olympic Coast National Marine Sanctuary  

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Environmental Recording 1:24:16 - 1:26:47 Play 1:24:16 - More
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NPR/NGS Radio Expeditions
15 Jul 1997

    Geography
  • United States
    Washington
    Clallam County
    Locality
  • Port Angeles
    Latitude/Longitude
  • 48.11306   -123.44083
    Habitats
  • Marine Shoreline
  • Urban
    Features
  • Beach
    Channels
  • Stereo
    Sampling Rate
  • 48kHz
    Bit Depth
  • 16-bit
    Recorders
    Microphones
  • Sennheiser MKH 40
  • Sennheiser MKH 30
    Accessories
    Equipment Note
  • Stereo=1; Decoded MS stereo; Sennheiser MKH40 Cardioid Mid Mic and MKH30 Bidirectional Side Mic

NPR/NGS
RADIO EXPEDITIONS
NMS-OLYMPIC COAST
DAT #1
INTERVIEW TODD JACOBS
TJ = Todd Jacobs
EA = Elizabeth Arnold

Day 1 Dat 1 Port Angeles w/ Todd MS MKH 40s/30s edge of water w/o fur coat on zepplin. bg talking. voice a bit off-mic. pre-interview talk, voices In bg.
1:59 sound gets better. but bg talking continues. sound quality fluctuates, fading in and out ...
2:23 sound fades in and out, bg talk boat in bg 3:00-5: ...
4:02 horn nvg, off-mic.
8:15 ea "how do you describe the sanctuary to others?"
8:35 tj "i try to explain that its a vast area (horn) that's extremely pristine and fairly remote to get to and i try to its sig not only because of its intrinsic beauty but because of the ecosystem that supported from the submarine canyons that produce the primary activity through large whales sev. endangered species and its an area that's not only sig to comm fisherman and crabbers but to the four native american tribes that have lived along this coast for time immemorial the fact that its a spills especially, consequences of the access along ocnms diff than the rest run along the coast vulnerable place. its vulnerable to oil overfishing and some of the environmental increasing dev. of the world. really the and the outer coast of washington are of the west coast b/c highway 101 doesn't as it does along the coast of cal. and oregon. but for a small area through the sanctuary the highway is much inland. and the people that get out to the coast really make an effort to do so."
10:20 ea "its one of the wilder places isn't it?"
10:xx tj "it certainly is. there's really been little development there's the indian reservation at neah bay and quileute ...ho ...but really the area has been undeveloped also because the coastal strip of the olympic national park is desig. wilderness coast and the sanctuary really complements this as well."
11:00 ea " what is your job really? .. "
11:30 tj "def. there are pre-existing authorities and jurisdictions w/i the olympic coast sanctuary are as multilayered and as complex as you can go because not only are there the state regulations and the designations of the off-shore wildlife refugees which are encompassed by the sanctuary. the coastal strip of the olympic national park the usual and accustomed fishing areas of the four tribes, the pacific fisheries manangement coucil for ex managing the fisheries along w/ the state of washington depending on which species we're talking about so there are many many layers of juridiction. (12:10) the army corp of engineers working to realign the harbor jetties. and the uh fish and wildlife service which shares jurisdiction with noaa on some of the endangered species."
12:25 tj and its really not the role of the sanctuary to become another layer of regulation and management what it is is a coordinating mechanism more like an umbrella under which all of these entities together through formal consultations and through work in the sanctuaries advisory council, work to share funding to share efforts to share priorities for research programs and for oil spill efforts and things like that to happen more efficiently. the regulations of the sanctuary are few and what they do is complement gaps in the existing regulations so the reg of each of those pre-existing authorities are still valid and in place and in fact the fisheries are not managed at all by the sanctuary program w/i the sanctuary and i think that is one of the more poorly understood aspects of the program is that the national program has a multi-use mandate and so the sanctuary program works to promote nonconsumptive uses of the resources so we're certainly not out promoting you know fishing boat races or things like that, but uh whale watching, nature trips, photography and the history of the ship wrecks and things like that are things that we actively promote and we do recognize the importance of safe marine transportation for example happen legally w/i the sanctuary and uh the analogy that i like to use is--which i think is not entirely accurate but it works pretty well here in the nw is that the marine sanctuary is more analogous to a marine national forest than to a marine national park"
14:26 ea "but same thing, you've got layers of beaurocracy but somehow it all works because you all have the same mandate underneath it all, an overall mandate to keep this place special--"
14:39 tj "very much so, the primary mandate of the nms is resource protection and so it is our charge to try and ensure that these unique and pristine areas will remain as such for generations to come ... "
14:56 ea "was everybody on board at the start, you had numerous periods of public comment for the most part were people in to that idea?"
15:09 tj I don't think there are many folks that would argue with those main tenants. I think there's really a misunderstanding of what the sanctuary's mandate is in that the multi-use mandate gets sort of lost in the shuffle. The name sanctuary for a national program is not an entirely accurate term descriptively. If you were to look up sanctuary in the webster's dictionary it would say a "place of refuge" and they certainly they are for many endangered species but they are not places that are entirely closed to commercial activity. So I'd actually venture to say that most of the folks that think that they are not agreeable to what the sanctuary program does are probably superficially responding to what the name of the program is w/o really doing their homework.
16:04 ea so it is a place of refuge but a sort of working place of refuge, an on-going place of refuge, I mean you're right, sanctuary sort of sounds like there are a bunch of walls put up and then nothing is touched and there are all kinds of competing uses aren't there?
16:20 tj there def. are competing uses and as we all know there are no fences in the ocean so its hard to effectively manage an ecosystem one component at a time because each activity can effect another an that's really what the sanctuary. Mandate is to coordinate all of these competing interests and activities in the area so that they can be sustainably managed. And so for ex. All the permitting from state and fed. Agencies that occurs in the sanctuary is reviewed in conjunction with the sanctuary program. And the sanctuary program is the only program that attempts to manage these increasingly vast marine areas form an ecosystem perspective
17:13 ea be more specific when you talk about competing uses in terms of olympic, we're talking about vessel traffic, we're talking about scientists doing research, we're talking about? What are we talking about?
17:24 tj actually all of that we're working very hard here on issues here of vessel traffic again recognizing Puget sound in its adjacent ports are vital to the economic health o fthe region and that commercial shipping needs to come through the sanctuary having said that we've worked with the int maritime organization to designate an area off-shore as an area to be avoided for tank vessels that are carrying oil or other hazardous cargo. What that means is that oil tankers maintain twenty-five miles off-shore when they're transiting the sanctuary, that's to buy us more time in the unlikely event any given day of a catastrophic oil spill from one of these ships (gets faint) because of the rugged nature of the off-shore coast. There is not much spill response equipment staged on the outer coast of Washington and it takes ten to fifteen hours depending on the weather and on where the staged equipment is available to respond to oil spills on the outer coast. So for shipping we're working to better study, understand and manage ship traffic in the sanctuary but we're working closely with the industry we're working closely with the industry we're working closely with the us and Canadian coastguards and with the state of Washington and with the Makah tribe so again its an area where the sanctuary is sort of the catalyst and even the umbrella under which these groups come together to better protect the resources.
19:10 ea By just studying what is happening now ... and then you can use that as a model and other sanctuaries can learn from that ...
19:23 tj Right, we've been really lucky in Washington's outer coast here that there's a vessel traffic service so not too dissimilar from air traffic control that identifies and tracks all the ships that are in and out bound to through the strait of Juan de Fuca going to and from the ports of Tacoma, Seattle, Olympia and Vancouver and so this vessel traffic system has on its radar scopes images of each ship that's coming in and out and those are archived and we are actually able to take those data and rebuild them on a computer system in our office that shows where each of those ships were graphically where all the ships were traveling (20: 12 horn) through the sanctuary and those ships those oil tankers that were not in compliance with the area that's supposed to be avoided for tank vessels but then correspond with them directly so that they can learn to be better citizens as they pass through the marine sanctuary.
20:35 ea ultimately at some point can you say these ships should not be coming through we have the data here to prove that they are doing x, y and z and can you use some ofthat to eliminate vessel traffic or at least change vessel traffic patterns or am I going to far
20:56 tj no the authority to actually develop vessel traffic regulations was included with the scope of regulation at the olympic coast sanctuary but the sanctuary. wouldn't make those steps on its own, but being armed wi compelling data in conjunction with the us coastguard and the Canadian coastguard and the state ofWashington it is not inconceivable that in the near future that vessel traffic routing could be changed because vessel traffic is out there.
21:34 ea is your mandate too broad...is it too much to try and do?
21:49 tj "it might be too much to try and do with the current budgets and staff that we have its certainly management of a marine sanctuary is often crisis du jour and uh we come across issues that--its a young program as well so its not infrequent that we come across issues that haven't been dealt with before or we may not have the resources within the national budget to deal with them at the time. We're lucky that noaa our parent agency is so large and uh has the tools to deal with a lot of the problems that that we may come up with and the mandate is large and broad and it's sometimes a little difficult with a small staff to be able to be fully involved in each of the mandated areas that we have"
22:53 ea "when you think ofan area that's called a sanctuary and yet you've got commercial fishing, sport fishing, tanker traffic, you got all these different things, what sets it apart from 100 miles down the coast."
23:12 tj "that's a good question, 100 miles down the coast from the olympic sanctuary the whole character of the coast and the resources changes, when we study the sites to be designated the boundaries are really determined by geographic areas, and so that pristine nature of Washington's outer coast with the dramatic sea stacks and the high energy surf-sculpted landscape that changes south of the sanctuary. and really the greatest influence are the marine canyons and all o that that make the area so productive are also not as _(?)_ down there-its a broad sandy beach area
23:55 ea "so the site was just begging to be designated, it was the place"
24:01 tj "the Olympic coast is really a natural-"
24:08 tj "its really a perfect example that really embodies all of the tenets of why marine sanctuaries have been designated in this country, the fact that its such a pristine area the fact that it contains a number of historic shipwrecks and artifacts from the four Indian tribes is home to several endangered species and is part ofthe pacific flyaway complimenting"
24:45 ea "do you think people know its there?"
24:49 tj "more people know that the sanctuary is there than used to and we're working hard on that. Urn but no the sanctuary. program I would argue nationally is grossly under-both misunderstood and under-recognized"
25:12 ea "I mean why is that-we all know that Yellowstone ... is is it because there are no fixed boundaries ... ?
25:32 tj "but for the Florida keys, I think that's really true with the special sensitive nature of the coral reefs people really are aware that they are in the marine sanctuary. while they're boating, because we have a large number of buoys that are marked "marine sanctuary" more for their moorings so that the anchors don't destroy the corals and there's a large on the water presence through a partnership with the Florida dept. of natural resources, but in the rest of the sites usually the sites are areas that encompass other areas and so you may not know you are in a marine sanctuary and on one level that's okay, as long as the marine areas stay looking and functioning the way they have that's our primary goal but uh its also to uh ... build a constituency for a program that tries to keep marine areas which are ... you know we're still exploring the oceans and naming new species every day for these areas that not as many people spend time on but yet are so important to the country to, for (boat in bg) effecting our productivity for food, the weather, all kinds ofthings,
that, I think we do need to build recognition with uh people ofthe country and
even with congress ...
27:26 tj certainly loving things to death has been a problem in nature reserves all over the world and that's why here in the ocnms in the work that we do to promote ecotourism is really consistent wi our multi-use mandate and with our bigger resource protection mandate what we're doing here for example is working very closely wi charter fisherman charter boat operators that have boats that were used to fish for salmon that were sitting idle, we're training people to do whale watching, and otter watching and bird watching trips to be good naturalists and good stewards but as we go into studying the promoting ofeco-tourism here in the sanctuary, we're doing it sort ofin a three-pronged strategy where as we're putting together trips we're working with univ. ofWashington and us fish and wildlife researchers to make sure that they approach different distances that we allow are safe that we're not disturbing the seabirds same time that we're developing our educational materials and promoting the trips so we're very careful to not allow in geographic vicinity or frequency too many or too close trips. But that's def an issue.
29:01 ea because its such a wild place, it sounds as though you're starting from a really early point in that process so you're able to (from the ground up) as eco-tourism begins monitor its impacts as you go as opposed to coming in too late.
29:16 tj we've established the base line before we even started and these are the 1st ecotourism trips from the water in this amazing areas, so that's really a neat opp for people who want to continue making their living on the water in a similar lifestyle as they're accustomed while the resources are recovering while the salmon fisheries are closed or depressed hopefully with a little help from us, through training and even by subsidizing the costs of some ofthese boat trips we can keep people living where they're living and enjoying they're life out on the water rather than have to take up a new living or live somewhere else.
30:03 ea And some ofthe research is focused that way, the study of birds on tatoosh ...?
30: 14 tj On tatoosh island there is research being done on the effects of ecotourism but also it is the ground zero 1991 tenu maru oil spill and it will be the site ofthe lion share ofthe restoration work that was done on that spill, it was an interesting spill in that there was a resp. party that has taken responsibility and has funded a restoration plan and so a gr of the resource trustees that include fish and wildlife ... have crafted a plan which will be finished later this summer and which will be operational the next yr.
31:18 ea let's talk about that spill, did that play into the designation of the site?
31:28 tj I think it must have it was in July of 1991 when the incident occurred, it was act. The collision of two vessels, a Chinese and a Japanese and the collision act occurred in Canadian waters but it soiled most ofthe beaches of Washington's Olympic peninsula esp tatoosh island which is an amazing place, v imp place for breeding of several species of seabirds, the most impact it has is on the common mune(?) and that's the species that most ofthe restoration will occur on I do believe . .lends a lot of support to design of sanctuary.
32:58 ea and there were pressures for mineral development? tj ... yes ...
33:49 tj the tenu maru was not the first oil spill to impact that part ofthe coast ... its just lucky that its such a high activity area that natural cleansing of ocean ... but birds noticeably absent to trained observer ....
34:49 tj public interest sort of waxes and wanes with the big catastrophic events in the country, we're right now in sort ofan ebb cycle. There's not a lot of interest and its getting a little bit harder to fund the research for the new projects but we all know next time there's a big spill somewhere in the country the funds will go back up. Similarly there's pub sentiment that perhaps some of the money for tenu maru might be better spent on restoring salmon stocks, because the coast looks okay so we're always working really hard get people to understand what the long-term impacts ofthe oil spill even when it looks okay to get back in the water ...
35:56 ea the success of ocnms doesn't that play into other sites such as NW straits can't it be held up as a model when folks are deciding whether to designate a site?
36:14 tj I think certainly the work we've done---set the stage for what a sanctuary can do in the nw ... I do believe that the good work we've done here would help supp the designation of a sanctuary. what I do think would help the most is an objective analysis of what the threats to those resources are, whether there's sig gaps in those regulations. .. and whether at this point in time whether the political will exists ...
37:50 ea what kinds ofthings are you doing up here that would be of help to other sanctuary.?
39:20 tj A lot of work that we do is a little less tangible because its related to policy and policy coordination and even though there are sanctuary boundaries the issues are a little less discreet because we don't have a lot ofon the water presence we're more coordinators in the background ...
39:53 ea devil's advocate, what can you do in terms of mitigating that
tj your? is-"how is it going to be diff. in the even of an oil spill if there is a sanctuary present?
ea u-huh
tj in that event, its not going to make a whole lot of difference, ofcourse its higher visibility for noaa ...
40:55 tj we are act great repositories for information, in the Olympic coast we've worked and are still working to fill in the data gap so that we can then on compo Mapping machines we are then able to have the resources indexed (bg noise increases) ... so that we can best muster our efforts to protect those areas first and that's almost what it is ... there's constant work modeling oil moving ... diff strategies and we are good advisors for that ... but really there's never enough equipment ... fines
ea again if you know its there you know how to rebuild
43:54 ea what should these places be?
Bg noise increases
44:01 ea ideally ms are areas that are managed a coordinated managing mechanism its a coordination of better resource efforts
... ea what should these places be? ..
44:58 tj I think they should mean to the public is that these are some of the most pristine examples of the different marine ecosystems in the country and they are being managed sustainably so that they will hopefully always be in the condition that they were when they were designated so that for the future these rep marine ecosystems will remain not only aesthetically pleasing but productive as well. It might sound a little bit esoteric so that if we've done our job they should be places that look the same as they did 50 years ago or a hundred years from now on one level what the sanctuary does is provide this coordinated mechanism then to ensure that does happen so that the existing laws are coordinated in a fashion so that over¬-harvesting and harbor dredge materials and discharges of sewage ... aren't occurring or are occurring in ways and in amounts that they are not diminishing the qualities ofthe resources
46:23 ea How would you feel if these areas were quartered off in the sense ofa sanctuary¬ no fishing ... do you like that idea or do you think that goes against the whole mission of these places?
46:43 tj I think that would actually go against what the mission of what the sanctuary is. The sanctuary that have been designated in the past five years or are increasingly vast areas-you just couldn't do it. The fish that are produced in marine sanctuary. in other places can be caught in other places so maintaining the habitat, the ecosystem can be done by allowing these other activities but the nms wouldn't have been designated if they were exclusionary zones.
47:20 ea The reason I ask is that I think that's what some people think that these places are ...
tj uh-huh, the name is something that has definitely plagued us near to the inception ofthe program I would say maybe that's something we should do in conjunction wi NPR have a naming contest ... (ea laughing)
48:00 ea specifically with the makah, what's your sense of, it certainly makes it unique ... that they're involved with the management
48:11 tj its unique and its our pleasure to work with the makah I'm v honored to have their involvement and support ... they are a people that are a seafaring people that have made their living offthe edge ofthe earth ... have fascinating culture and professional staff and we're encouraged by the partnerships we've forged in areas that include vessel traffic routing schemes and the dev. Of ecotourism
do you think its been a sanctuary. for them all along?
49:18 tj Many ofthe elder still collect shell fish for subsistence and they are v v cautious of how well the water quality is maintained in the ocean and that's why the threat of oil spills is so tremendous to them ... their whole being is connected with the ocean..
ea I would think that if someone approached them and said "how about a sanctuary?" they would say "of course, that's what we have here already."
49:54 tj we're able to support them with that a lot (boat) having the nat recog. That comes with marine sanctuary designation it really allows efforts to focus on these special areas that then enables other things to occur, for the makah tribe we got after the sanctuary was designated got the coastguard to prevent commercial vessels form anchoring in makah bay. That was a really big benefit to the tribe ... discharges at night ...
ea symbiotic relationship?
tj certainly, the makah tribe are generous hosts to our field station ... we moor our research vessel at tatoosh ... they graciously allow us access to the reservation to observe sea otters, count seabirds ...
ea wlo using the word "pristine" when you first went out there what was it like?
tj awe-inspiring and dramatic ... makes me a little fearful, can't help be a little more respectful, weather more dramatic, can you get this across to other people?
ea do you think the makah play into why this place is so special?
54:41 tj i think they bring a lot to the sanctuary there is an issue ... whaling ... recently, there has been discussion in IWC, Makah to begin subsistence whaling ... it means diff things to diff people with the tribe .... relive that cultural expo
56:33 ea but like other multiple-use issues you all have to keep a certain-¬
56:41 tj its certainly a paradox for the sanctuary in that the only place w/I the waters of the lower forty-eight that it may be legal for a whale to be protected is in a federally protected area its really a difficult one for me to explain to people, but it really gets back to what a marine sanctuary is and esp. the ocnms and our tribal partners is that the marine sanctuary and its regulations don't abrogate or minimize any treaty guaranteed right. So whether people agree or disagree the fact that the makah's treaty of 1855 has recently been reinterpreted to be valid and effective for this right far supersedes the jurisdiction or authority ofthe marine sanctuary.
(Repeat of whaling discussion) Any fishery that existed prior to the designation date of the marine sanctuary. still occurs wlo sanctuary involved, similarly but on a much grander scale the treaty guaranteed rights to the four tribes that are encompassed by the sanctuary .... those treaty rights are sacred and our program has worked very closely with through dev. Of legal counsel to ensure that none of the sanctuary reg diminish any of the treaty guarantee rights including rights to whale and seal and that treaty rights have been recently reaffirmed ... (boat, voice over microphone in bg, horn) ... it is an anomaly that the only place a gray that whales can be taken below 48 is in marine sanctuary., again a multi-use area one that rec the treaty guaranteed rights.. .is a tough one to explain but it does make sense .... (talk about dr. baker administrator of noaa and iwc)
1:02:18 ea ...one place can whale will be in sanctuary ... ?
1:02:40 tj ... may make people less enamoured with (nms) program ... others maybe will become more aware of multi-use mandate ...
ea ... these places are not "sanctuaries" ...
1:03:57 tj ... the issue is how do you define what a sanctuary is? name doesn't describe what the program does ...
1:05:11 tj I'm todd jacobs manager of the ocnms ...
1:07:24 ambi from tj interview ...
1:07:43 foghorn
1:08:35 foghorn then another kind of horn/siren, boat coming in distance (vg, nice progression of horn/siren sounds)
1:09:32 really close foghorn (vg), birds in bg
1:09:54 horn again.,
1:10:07 short foghorn boat humming in bg
1:10:24 short foghorn, humming
1:10:41 more ambi from tj int. near water. Close up water sounds, close foghorn and siren in distance
1:11:24 foghorn really close, lapping water, more water sounds ...
1:12:40 progression of foghorn, lapping water
1:16:16 walking back from tj int. site to pier area a lot of birds really good fx at 1:18:36 of bird. Man on pier to child "see the mama with her babies"
1:21:30 motor noises, clanging in bg, water. .. voice over loudspeaker ...
1:23:37 more walking sounds, children talking. Water sounds
1:24:21 ambi gentle wave sound, boat in bg? foghorn and loudspeaker voice to-¬
1:26:50 tape ends

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