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Interview :26 - 41:50 Play :26 - More
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Greg Ruiz  







Marine invasive species  

Interview 41:50 - 1:25:39 Play 41:50 - More
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Jim Carlton  







Marine invasive species  

Interview 1:40:59 - 1:58:14 Play 1:40:59 - More
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Greg Ruiz  







Marine invasive species  

NPR/NGS Radio Expeditions
19 Jun 1995

  • United States
    Anne Arundel County
  • Edgewater; Smithsonian Environmental Research Center
  • 38.88662   -76.54265
    Recording TimeCode
  • :26 - 1:25:39
  • United States
    Anne Arundel County
  • Edgewater; Smithsonian Environmental Research Center; Rhode River
  • 38.88556   -76.54167
    Recording TimeCode
  • 1:40:59 - 1:58:14
  • Stereo
    Sampling Rate
  • 48kHz
    Bit Depth
  • 16-bit
    Equipment Note
  • Stereo=1; Decoded MS stereo

"Oceans of Life"
Interview with Jim Carlton & Greg Ruiz

00:30 GR: I'm Dr. Greg Ruiz, and we are at the Smithsonian Environmental Research Center.. and this is an aquarium room that we use to hold organisms, and what you see in this tank is a small square that's about 13 cm on a side, it's a solid substrate that we put out in Chesapeake Bay region, and we have these now out at 50 different sites that we use to collect the organisms that colonize hard substrates like pure pilienes (?) and rocks, and they are collected to allow us to figure out what species are present in Chesapeake Bay. In particular we are interested in learning which new species may be arriving and invading the Chesapeake Bay region through ballast water that is released by ships.
1:27 AC: What are these -RWSRP 2 that's a designation for what's in this quite small holding aquarium with a little air pump going in it. It's maybe 6 inches by 15 inches by 9 inches high. What's in there? I see tiny shrimp-like things in there, kind of floating around, maybe ah -they look like um -
GR: Amphipods, little crustaceans -
AC: maybe a quarter of an inch at the most long -not even that ¬maybe an eighth ¬
2:10 GR: those are amphipods. It's a small crustacean related to crabs, and this tank is actually a tank that housed one of those settling plates just a half hour ago, that was taken to another laboratory to identify the species that are there. The species that we find on these settling plates are both sessile invertebrates, those that don't move as well as mobile invertebrates, and sometimes fish. And so what's left in this tank are some of the mobile fauna. And in this other tank adjacent to it you can see a settling plate with barnacles and hydroids, and a variety of other organisms as well as some of the same crustaceans swimming around in the water.
2:56 AC: What's a hydroid?
GR: It's related to the sea anemone, and it's more of an erect form, and it has a group of tentacles that it uses to capture
3:09 AC: If you look in this little tank here, are these alien species?
3:14 GR: That's what we are interested in finding out, and at
first look it's difficult to say, because they are quite small to the naked eye and so what we do is we take these organisms and look at them under the microscope and identify them based on the knowledge that we have as well as by sending them out to known experts of the taxonomy of any particular group, which may be at the smithsonian National Museum of Natural History or it maybe another museum or academic institution someplace else in the world.
3:56 ambi: sound in the room -a loud buzzing in the background, and faint trickling of water (dripping from the aquarium tubes?)
4:15 AC: What's that there?
GR: That's a small fish; a gobi.
4:21 AC: And that came off of one of your plates?
4:23 GR: It did. It's probably a naked gobi which is a native species resident in much of the Chesapeake Bay. We often catch naked gobies and sometimes crabs, and occasionally blenius, on the settling plates that we bring in.
4:42 AC: These are not a problem, these are native fish -
GR: these are part of the native fauna that are resident here. one of the difficult things though, as you might imagine, is that on these plates across chesapeake bay we encounter perhaps 100, 150 different species, and its difficult to say for certain at first glance what they are, and whether they belong here, so it may take many months -six months or more to actually identify what those species. and so, it is a fairly arduous process to actually say what the species is, let alone whether its invaded in the last 4 centuries. in many cases we won't be able to tell whether it's an invader or whether its a native species. but in some cases it's very clear based on past data that's been collected, or bio-geography where that organism is distributed through out the world.
5:48 -6:52 ambi of the lab -trickling of water, bubbles in tanks? buzzing of fluorescent lights?
7:15 -ambi: going in and out of the rooms, walking around, walking up stairs
this is our culture room
41:50 JC: according to ed bausfield and his co-author, there is no question -it does exist.
AC: and how big is it?

JC: well, 20 feet long -20-30 feet long.
AC: i think that qualifies for a sea monster
JC: it's a marine reptile
AC: a marine reptile?
JC: uh huh.
AC: there are no marine reptiles.
JC: this one is.
AC: the only marine reptile is where? the galapagos?
42:16 JC: isn't there a marine crocodile? salt water crocodile? there are some, but these are big. it's a great story. i don't even know if the national press wants to touch it, but its ¬these are two good men. some might say that bausfield has now fallen off the edge............
43:16 AC: I want to ask four very simple questions with very simple answers, i am sure. What are these things that are cominghere? what are alien species.
JC: alien species are non-native -
AC: i forgot, sorry.... just say who you are, and what you
43:42 JC: My name is Jim Carlton, i am a professor of marine sciences, and director of maritime studies at williams college ¬mystic seaport. alien species, or non-native species, non¬indigenous species are animals and plants that are from other regions of the world, the european theaterm (?), south america, the pacific...... [pause for truck] ....which are speci which are transported.... 44:28 [TAKE TWO]

Alien species are exotic species, non-native species, non-indigenous species, that are transported from various regions of the world to North America. In the global picture it means any organism transported from the area from which it is native to or previously well established, to a novel area - to a new region. And we contrast this to species that are transported by natural processes like ocean currents, or by wind that are moved around the world by - without the help of human activity.

45:07 AC: but this does go on. that is, things do get from one place to another. and in fact, in the ocean, why isn't it possible for species A to get anywhere it wants to. after all, it's one big pond, isn't it?

45:22 JC: species are certainly transported naturally, but in fact the ocean is as heterogeneous as is the land. And so that when we talk about species that live along the European shoreline, along the inner-continental shelf areas, the estuaries, the bays, the ports and the harbors of Europe for example, those organisms have no natural means to go across the ocean let alone between oceans in any real way. So that when we talk about basic trans-oceanic, and especially inter-oceanic transport, almost all of the movement has to be at the hands of human activity.

46:14 AC: hasn't this been going on for hundreds of years - that is, how do you know any more whether something that shows up in the chesapeake bay or in massachusetts bay -how do you know whether it belongs there or not?
JC: species have been moved - shallow water, marine, and brackish organisms - plants and animals have been moved around the world's oceans for centuries. there's no question about that. and as a result of that we in fact are not sure about which species are native, and which are introduced. for many kinds of animals. We absolutely know for sure because of the fossil record, the archaeological record, because of the historical record. but for many of the species, if they were transported from the Atlantic ocean to the pacific ocean in the 16th century, by spanish ships we don't know that. and this can involve a wide variety of organisms, worms and sea-squirts (?), and lots of other small marine invertebrates. so there is a vague picture -the antiquity of invasions is not so clear to us, and for that reason we refer to not only native species, and introduced species, but also crypto-genic species, species that -whose bio-geographic history we do not know. this movement has been going on for 'long time. ballast water has been in place since the 1880s, and now, in the 1980s and 1990s, we have seen what we think is a very large serge of ballast mediated invasions. we are not sure why, we are not sure how much of a serge that is compared to some other historical episodes throughout the past couple of centuries, but it seems clear that we are certainly existing at a time where there are a lot of invasions going on.

48:14 AC: if indeed this has been going on for hundreds of years, to the point where you can't even tell any more whether some species are native or not native -what difference does it make?
48:27 JC: there are various reasons why we; are interested, and why a species is native or not. there are reasons associated with understanding the origin of community structure, with understanding evolutionary processes and communities and those are sort of academic questions that are of interest what we want to pick apart and dissect the history if the community and the history of the diversity of the system. in more practical terms, in terms of why this would be of interest to the public or to government agencies our concerns are very much relative to the accidental importation, the accidental release and establishment, of exotic species that would have first order societal impacts ¬- economic impacts, industrial impacts, recreational impacts, human health impacts, and we know that a lot of those species are being moved around the world today, and have been moved, and we have some classic examples over the last 5 to 10 years alone of species that have come in and really altered the potential for societies use of natural resources.

49:43 ac: wait for that plane to go away
jc: that plane is carrying insects from one place to another
ac: they are, aren't they?
jc: they are. especially since they stopped spraying with ddt as much. they couldn't kill the insects any more.
50:13 AC: what is your concern about these things? why is it that you're concerned if in fact, this process has been underway for hundreds of years to the point where you can no longer tell whether these species are native or not.
50:28 jc: there's no question that we have mixed up a lot of the world's coastal marine biota over the past several centuries, and for some kinds of organisms we are not sure what their history has been as a result of the movement of ships between oceans for centuries. but our concerns today, with the apparently increased role of ballast water immediate issues of the accidental transport, and inoculation and potential subsequent establishment of species that can have direct impacts on human society, whether those impacts are economic, recreational, human health, whether they manifest themselves in terms of large scale impacts on industry. What ever those kinds of concerns are, there are more and more species being transported around the world, which have demonstrated that they have those kinds of immediate impacts and they have caused us to be particularly concerned now for the last 5, 10, 15 years. Example include the movement by ballast water of organisms, causing toxic phytoplankton blooms, red tides - these are called harmful algal blooms now, often by ballast water we think, the movement of species can impede water flow in pipes, such as zebra mussels that arrived in north America from Eurasia. species that can come in and potential act as parasites, predators and competitors, with fin fish resources, shellfish resources, species that get released for other reasons around the world and then have impacts on the very industries that are moving the species around. An important example today are the lethal viruses that are moved in large quantities in large amounts in the shrimp industry around the world leading to extensive mortalities. And right now, in 1994, 1995, a new virus that at least started - as far as we know - in south America, it may have originated somewhere else, it has been moved in the last few months up to the gulf of Mexico, into the aquaculture based shrimp fisheries and American facilities in the gulf of Mexico, and this is an introduced virus for the gulf of Mexico, and has already led to tens of millions of dollars in loss, in those facilities.

53:13 ac: did that come in in a ship?
jc: that came in because the shrimp industry moved shrimps around. it's yet another one of the vectors of transportation of exotic species around the world. ballast water is a major one. aquaculture is a major vector as well today, especially with our ability to move animals and plants around the world, not as with ships in ten, fifteen days, twenty days, but around the world in twelve to twenty-four hours by airplane.
bg: bird singing
53:45 ac: let me just ask you about this ballast water. __/'1

53:54 .JC: Ships carry ballast for many reasons, primarily to adjust their stability at sea, their trim, so when they are without cargo or with partial cargo, or as they lose water - potable water, or as they use up fuel that they can maintain a stable state in - at the water surface. So water is one kind of ballast. Before ballast water, for centuries other ballast was used -stone, rock and sand. so, the thing we have always said is that the second ship had ballast, first ship went down [bg. alex laugh softly], so the need for ballast is just part of the design of he a vessel at sea, which is meant to carry something, and not be empty at sea, and so when you are not carrying your cargo or your people then you have to have something that makes up for the comparable weight load on a ship .

54:52 AC: why do they dump the ballast when they come into port? why not just keep the ballast?
JC: the ballast water is replacing in volume and in weight usually the cargo that the ship is meant to carry. so the ideal ship is meant to carry cargo on all legs. you go to sf or to ny w/cargo, and you pick up cargo in those ports to go back to another port. But in fact many of those ships are on a ballast leg, and a cargo leg and many ships spend almost half of their lives empty of cargo, but full of ballast, so they are actually moving a different kind of cargo around the world, in this case ballast water.

55:39 ac: when you say to ship owners -hey, do you guys realize you are carrying living organisms in your ships, and depositing them in some one else's coastal waters, are they at all concerned about that?
55:53 JC: there is concern. it is a kind of impact that industry has. i would say that the vast majority of ship operators, until they are informed or have read abou~ it, really had no idea what they were doing. in many other kinds of industrial -other impacts on the environment, you actual,have an idea of what you are doing all along the way. but this is one of those things that until they were informed about it, until they realized what it was they were doing. there was no clear understanding -if any understanding at all -that by doing this they were moving fish or crabs or whatever around the world for much of their professional lives. i would say that there is concern among many of them. for many of them they go back to the idea that gosh, we've been doing this for centuries, why -is it really a problem? so we see a whole range of responses. not unique to the industry, but the same kind of responses that we hear, or questions that we have from the public, or from the gov't.
57:07 AC:the whole basis of this program that we've been listening to -the whole idea here is that biodiversity, the variety of life, is good -so, if you bring new life forms into a place, and introduce them , isn't that good?
jc: there are a number of environments that today which certainly have more species we think than they used to, and that's the result of humans moving more species into these novel places, and so, in that sense, the total number of species present is certainly higher than it used to be. but our concept of biodiversity is also one of the natural structure of the world, and of a world that we can understand how communities came about through natural, ecological and evolutionary processes. that's what we really want to understand, and really want to study. we'd rather not, therefore, alter systems so extensively, and so extraordinary that they are now really only the results of the past one hundred or two hundred years of extended human activity. we can study those communities for that phenomenon, but when we talk about the biodiversity of the world, what we are celebrating is the natural diversity and how natural communities came about. Not weedy lots. those are not our primary interests, although they hold a great deal of interests for ecologists for other reasons. and whether the weedy lot is on land, or the weedy lot is in an estuary, it's still a weedy lot, and it is a construct of--our commercial and other activities for the past couple of centuries. in addition, there is the potential or a real loss, and that's a loss of the -of both native species and how those species worked and operated in the communities that the exotic species have now invaded. we may not have lost a lot of marine organisms due to marine invasions, but clearly in many places the abundance of those native species has been altered, and therefore, we have lost the natural structure of the system, which is a sad consequence of many of these invasions. More practically; and more fundamentally, we don't always add species that are going to be benign or beneficial. and many of these invasions can have serious first order effects on the systems on which they invade. they can be important erosion agents, they can have lots of effects on human society, human industry and so on.

1:00:11 AC: on of the things i wonder is why are things like long necked clams -why don't they thrive -i mean, why can't you get sort of bring the kind of steamers down here, and get them to thrive. why don't lobsters come down here, and start flourishing like mad, or -why is it that the weeds grow in the lot and the orchids don't?
JC: well, there certainly is potential to move species around intentionally or accidentally that could add to our fisheries resources. I mean that potential exists, and in some cases it that is both the intentional and accidental release of species that add to food from the sea, type of resources in many cases the invasions that we see occur in environments that have been perturbed, or disturbed by human activities, and create this artificial environment where species have extraordinary physiological plasticity, extraordinary broad and trophic and habitat potential do very well. it's not only true that exotic species exist only in those environments, but very often, its a mark of the kind of habitats that we've created, the altered estuaries, and harbors and ports and lagoons and marshes and so on. that's where we see many invasions. we see invasions in other areas as well, and so the pattern isn't solely that of invasion into human altered, and human disturbed environments. there have been species that have been introduced, and have done well for both commercial and sport fisheries, and they are seen as examples of the beneficial aspects of the movement of non-native species. this had gone on for may centuries. the idea to enhance nature, and to improve nature is a very old one, and along those lines we move the atlantic stripped bass to the pacific ocean -to california -in the 19th century, where it rather became established, and has now become a popular sport fishery. With oysters that came from asia in the 1930's, came a small clam that accidentally became established on the pacific coast of north America, and that clam became so well established that it began to be used as a very extensive aquaculture industry, all based on an accidental introduction of a clam from japan, to british Columbia and Washington. now when you eat bouillabaisse from la to vancouver, you are probably eating the japanese little neck clam, which is commercially grown, and harvested in the waters of Washington state. So, there are examples of species that are moved around and have been perceived by the public as beneficial additions to marine resources. Those species have their own impacts on the communities in which they exist. In order to make millions and millions of clams you have to put some energy into them, for stripped bass to exist there are large scale predators. but usually when we move up to the level of species that become important socially and economically, we don't much concern ourselves after that -with the ecological impacts of those species but rather celebrate the societal values.

1:04:23 AC: for a separate part of the program i want to ask you for the conclusions part of this -i want to ask you what is necessary for research. the sort of basic tenants of what you think needs to be done. ok? so, go ahead.

JC: for ballast water specifically?

AC: yeah, and for alien -generally speaking for alien species ¬what is it that we need to do ¬-
JC: the major concerns about invasions today are to understand the patterns and processes globally of when and how and why invasions occur, and what the impacts are on natural and already altered ecosystems, and by extension the implementation of quarantine programs that would prevent future accidental invasions, and the implementatio of programs that would attend to a careful look at what species we plan to introduce internationally. So for the future we are looking at really two main courses. One is to identify the priomary vectors by which humans now move species around the world unintentionally that could have important impacts, and those vectors include ballast water.

1:06:04 AC: most people would not use the word vector, so when you use that world could you explain what you mean?

JC: Our goal is to identify the major dispersal pathways, the major transport mechanisms by which humans are now moving their activities - marine and brackish and in fresh water, organisms around the world. We look at ballast water, and it's potential management. We look at the management of the movement of organisms for the bait industry as examples of those transport mechanisms. and for each of those there are various levels of management that are now being actively being discussed on both international and national levels. what we need is both research and cooperation [bg -motor boat?] that will mean that quarantine systems come on line that will be truly effective to reduce the number of invasions. There is no sense that we are going to stop ballast mediated invasions. There is no sense that we are going to see the cessation of all exotic species being moved around by human activity. The sense is to put into operation for the oceans what we have on land, and that is the most sophisticated quarantine systems that we can manage. On land we have departments of agriculture around the world, who's business is to prevent accidental introduction of plants and insects, and other terrestrial sorts of organisms, so they won't have impact on a country's agricultural resources. The same thing can happen in the oceans, where we have a quarantine system in place where we attempt to manage ballast water in one way or another through a whole variety of suggested mechanisms that would similarly reduce the number of exotic species coming in that might have an impact on the marine counter part of our land-based agriculture resources.
1:08:18 The other major concern today is that we have, with all of the ballast water being moved around the world, we have a lot of species that are being moved around the world intentionally. and these include sea weeds, fish, shellfish, shrimp and literally hundreds of species are at least being considered, or are now being actively moved for mariculture and aquaculture purposes. We know that with those species come other species and particularly comes the potential of the transmission of diseases. And there is increasing awareness of that and increasing concern about the movement of invertebrate and fish diseases around the world by our extraordinary swift ability now to get anywhere in the world in a matter, of hours. so you cam pick up 10 million shrimp in the indo-pacific and be in south Carolina with those shrimp alive within a matter of hours. What's on and in those shrimp is something that we are pushing very hard needs to be the subject of a great deal of research and a great deal of potential management. So controlling both the intentional and accidental introductions through research and national and international regulations is really a big picture for the next century. 1:09:47

AC: we need to record just one min of sound here. -nothing good -mov't and birds in bg
1:11:57 AC: so just to sum up, this is what you believe are the five fundamental Objectives -not just you, but a research study, for national research agenda on marine biodiversity.
1:12:13 JC: the committee spent two years thinking about the way forward for marine biodiversity, both nationally and internationally, and concluded that a clear series of objectives would be a useful pathway, to think about what the issues and concerns were that might lie ahead, and how we might address those. a fundamental construct of the marine biodiversity agenda is that we incorporate a focus on the critical environmental issues in terms of human impacts on the oceans and thereby to improve our predications of what those impacts have been, now are, and could be. and this is all based upon a research agenda that focuses on understanding the patterns and the processes and the consequences of how marine biodiversity is changing at the hands of these activities. Along with that, we emphasize in the agenda that it's time to bring into greater focus a link btwn ecological and the oceanographic sciences so that we borrow both from the knowledge of biologists and ecologists on local patterns on biodiversity, and combine those with the oceanographers knowledge of the larger patterns of the physical and chemical processes in the near shore ocean. a critical aspect of the agenda is to emphasize the foundational role of taxonomy and systematics without which we can not understand biodiversity, and that it is absolutely necessary to bring taxonomy and systematics fully up into the research agenda as it now precedes. and finally we saw that at the end of the 20th century we have on our plate a very large number of new technologies, new instrumentation available to us, and that these offer some very exciting opportunities to investigate biodiversity as we have not been able to do so in the past and this includes for example the role of molecular genetics, and really understanding species level and population level diversity in the world's oceans. and then looping back then to the role of human impacts on how we might be loosing that diversity, and what molecular genetics can tell us about how much of that diversity we might have loss, are losing, and could lose. 1:15:10

1:15:12 AC: final thing -i am asking several people this: what is biodiversity... 25 words or less...
1:15:33 JC: a working definition of bio is the total diversity of genes and species and populations, communities and habitats. That is it's everything from the community to the ecosystem level. we can talk about the diversity of genes. and so, it is the biggest possible picture recognizing that biodiversity is not suited too well to pulling apart anyone of those levels but it is this reticulate mesh of nature.
1:16:28 AC: when i say that to people they say you mean life ¬just the study of everything that's alive on the planet. but that's not quite it, is it?
JC: It's recognizing that life isn't just the individual species that you can go out and count. it's recognizing that there are different kinds of forests, and different kinds of coral reefs, and that neither the land nor the ocean has the homogeneity to it that would often assign to those environments. the ocean in particular has not done well in terms of understanding in the public's mind how heterogeneous the oceans are, and so in terms of the diversity, or the biodiversity of the oceans it's not correct to say 'what's happening to the coral reefs'. there are numerous kinds of coral reefs. there are as many kinds of coral reefs as there are kinds of forests. and we wouldn't say there's the arctic forest, and the temperate forest, and the tropical forest, and just say: tell me about the forest. that doesn't make any sense. we shouldn't do that with the oceans either. there's no THE DEEP SEA. the deep sea is made up of enumerable habitats and micro-habitats. there's no THE ESTUARY. there are many kinds of estuaries. so, by not emphasizing that kind of level of diversity, and just by saying how many clams are out there -how many species of snails there are, it doesn't really reveal how profoundly diverse the oceans are.

1:17:57 AC: what is it that is valuable about diversity?
1:18:05 JC: well, the question of value is to whom is it valuable? and an academic biologist can value diversity because it is there, and because it is the amazing result of millions, or hundreds of thousand of years of evolution. and you can just go bathe in that, and stand at the edge of a marsh in the arctic or a coral reef in the tropics, and just be amazed at what is there. and that has a tremendous amount of value. diversity can also be a value because a fishing bank produces or used to produce twenty kinds of edible fish, all in huge numbers. and that is a social value that we bathe in, or used to bathe in. diversity can be recreational, and so we value diversity because we can go to a marsh and see 50 species of birds on a sunday morning. it is to whom and how the value is perceived by what we would call different user groups, although the word user might not be the best way to think about the resource that is out there. and it goes on and on, there are values about the medical sciences, and we often talk about whether or not biodiversity has its roles in new medicines. So, part of the story about biodiversity is that clearly it has an extraordinary number of values.

1:19:56 AC: just one more question, and then we will leave -i promise.

you've written this book, Understanding Marine Biodiversity, you are the guiding hand in this study .....what is the value of diversity to nature -to the natural system -what does it say to you.
1:20:24 JC: do you mean w/o humans present? [ac: yeah] well, there are communities that are composed of a very few species, and there are communities composed of hundreds if not thousands of species all w/in a -both w/in a relatively small region. so, i don't think of those systems as being more or less valuable or different. they've evolved differently, they are structured differently, it's elegant and amazing how some systems support three or four species and other systems support hundreds of species. and we both view them as fully operational communities that through which energy flows, and which has [motor boat in the bg, 1:21:17-1:21:21 great car/truck sound..... ]an evolutionary history and ecological future, so i am not sure that there is any one particular value of some level of diversity, or some kind of diversity, the ¬
1:21:35 AC: I guess value is not the right word -this producer from NGS, not CJ, keeps saying -so what difference does this make to me? what difference does biodiversity make?
1:21:58 JC: it is hard to come up with the -b/c of the different perceptions of how people relate to nature, i can't imagine there is anyone simple answer to that. that's a question that amateur birders would never ask. they enjoy the diversity of birds out there, and that to them is part of their live. whether they are librarians or bankers or real estate agents, they have a whole other life, and they just go out and bathe in the diversity of the birds of the world. and for others the diversity is the clam and lobster fisherman of chesapeake bay, and they are delighted that there are five species that they can fish. and that's their value of diversity. and it may be that we have increasing number of people in the world who are not out there messing around in nature with Edward Abbey. and are seeing this only in newspapers or on radio, and don't feel it, and don't touch it, and so for them, it would be a much harder concept. so it seems to me it depends on how one perceives nature.
1:23:28 AC: but see i think the general impression in say the media world or the political world would be that most people fit into that latter category, so what would you say to them.

JC: well, we say to those who are generally concerned, or ask about what is the value, or a value of biodiversity - we point to how important animals and plants have been in structuring all aspects of human society for millennia. For food, for medicine, for pets, for how we go about our daily lives and it would seem more than sad to actively profoundly reduce that diversity that could effect the kinds of ways that human societies have always used natural resources. one of our great concerns for the future are the diseases that effect human populations, and clearly we have not yet seen all the diseases. new diseases keep coming up in human societies. we are very good at looking for solutions for those diseases. and we now look to animals and plants for potential cures. and it is already clear that we have undoubtedly removed a number of species from the world that might have been one of the cures for one of the diseases that we now have, or could have in the future. that's a very fundamental, a very applied, very jugular aspect of why we should keep biodiversity, which would be to either cure disease, feed society or to make our enjoyment of nature more profound. 1:25:38
1:25:56 ac: [bg: birds chirping.... ]i like listening to biodiversity myself
JC: not bad

1:27:16-1:27:28 revving the boat?
1:27:35-1:29:20 boat moving, shifting gears, and then drives off -natural fade
low rumbling of the motor on a boat, a slow rocking sound -like a see-saw
1:31:53 on a boat ¬
1:31:57ac: ok, so just tell me where we are going?
GR: we are on the Rhode River here, and we are going to leave Smithsonian's dock and travel about a half a mile away to one of the settling plates arrays that we put out at one of the local marinas, which is often where we suspend on settling arrays ¬those PVC collectors. ok, everyone hold on, we are going to take of gain here [GOOD AMBI: 1:32:23-1:32:26 -waves against the boat -good to indicate this trip out onto the rhode river] ok, everyone hold on, we are going to take off again here [GOOD AMBI: 1:32:30-1:32:42 motor boat moving through water, w/ waves splashing on the sides of the boat, going faster and faster] ambi of boat moving through the water continues through 1:35:00
1:35:30 AC: is there a sampling plate on that dock?
gr: it is. it's about the middle of that dock.... moving along in the boat -muted sound no good
1:39:27 AC: what's that you are getting? woman -name?: it's just water to put in the bags for the plates. ambi: setting up -nothing good, muted sound
1:40:59 ac: greg, do you know the name of this marina? Greg: blue water marina
1:41:09 AC: have you found what you are looking for here? Greg: yeah. we found the plate we put out three months ago ¬ac: so just again, tell me what a plate is ¬
1:41:16 greg: ok, we have four plates on what we call an array, and the plates are slabs of PVCs, square slabs of pvc. three of the plates are made out of PVC, and one plate is made out of wood, and they are anchored on PVC pipe and weighted w/bricks, and those serve as a sub-straight to collect organisms that are settling out hoards (???) of organisms we usually find on the bottoms of boats or piers, and it provides a collector unit that can be moved and replicated throughout the day. it gives us a standard sampling unit that we can use to gage or test for non¬native species to a similar extent¬
1:42:08 ac: so you are just dropping this over the side here
more of AC and Greg on boat through end of DAT

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