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Bud Moore  

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Lewis and Clark  

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Jeff Fee  

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Environmental Recording 54:00 - 1:41:32 Play 54:00 - More
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Horse trail ambi  

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Equus caballus caballus 1:11:25 - 1:14:25 Play 1:11:25 - More
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Walking, Breathing, Snorting, Bridle fx  

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Lewis and Clark  

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Interview 1:24:34 - 1:58:13 Play 1:24:34 - More
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D. Mallickan, B. Moore, N. Steadman  

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Diane Mallickan, Bud Moore, Norm Steadman; Lewis and Clark  

NPR/NGS Radio Expeditions
25 Jul 2001

    Geography
  • United States
    Idaho
    Idaho County
    Locality
  • Near Wendover Creek
    Latitude/Longitude
  • 46.50944   -114.78333
    Habitats
  • Coniferous Forest
    Recording TimeCode
  • 4:20 - 46:10
    Geography
  • United States
    Idaho
    Idaho County
    Locality
  • Lewis and Clark Trail; near Wendover Ridge
    Latitude/Longitude
  • 46.53972   -114.81722
    Habitats
  • Coniferous Forest
    Recording TimeCode
  • 54:00 - 1:58:13
    Channels
  • Stereo
    Sampling Rate
  • 48kHz
    Bit Depth
  • 16-bit
    Recorders
    Microphones
    Accessories
    Equipment Note
  • Stereo=1; Decoded MS stereo; Spaced Omnis

NPRINGS
RADIO EXPEDITIONS Show: Lolo Trail
Log of DAT #: 3
Engineer: McQuay
Date: July 25, 2001

0:49 This is July 25th, 8:47am ...testing the spaced omnis ... Walking to pond, ducks & birds, traffic passing by.

1:15 - 3:50 ambi -something droning, can hear engines passing, birds chirping, 2:54 -car starting, car doors slamming

4:20 McQuay: MS, July 25th, we're at .. horses going to take us up to the trail

4:35 - 5:00 Bud:...that ridge is all uphill except for the occasional saddle, so I'd hang onto that ...horse...

5:58 Bud: A lot of history in that area ...so it's a focal point in the country.

6:17 Alex: And Lewis & Clark came through but they didn't stop there?

6:23 Bud: They went down the stream a little ways -they didn't stop at the meadow...They're doing a lot of work up there, planning to renovate that whole interpreting center. (7: 11)

7:16 A: I saw that little rock ... mound of bare rock. .. It's one big rock.

7:58 Bud: There's another thing about that meadow -you rock across it and it's awfully rough...I think they were digging (?) for the roots all over that meadow, and it left an
unusual roughness ...(8:35)

8:50 - 10:00 Bud: I'm Bud Moore. I was a ranger here ...for a good many years. Grew up here, pretty much. I live now in the meadow, (gives his address). Up there we have a couple hundred acres of our own forest land and we're trying to walk the talk of good ecosystem management on our own land ...And so we try to share what we're doing with interested people -our community and our government there.

10:02 Alex: When was it that you first came here -to this trail we're going on?

10:05 Bud: Oh, first came there in ... wouId be about 1936, probably ...give or take a year.

10:25 Alex: And the first time you went over that, did you know Lewis & Clark had been over that?

10:31 -12:00 Bud: Yeah, they knew, we knew ...we knew the Nez Perce had fisheries down there at the mouth of the crick. .. We weren't very historically oriented it seems in those days. We were making history, we weren't tying in very deeply to the past -the future was so exciting, I guess. We in the forest service were saving the country. We knew there were tremendous resources here, but we didn't know how they would be used in the future ...the historical aspects were important, but they weren't elevated quite to the sense of significance that they are today. The whole society today is looking at places
like this ...One thing we did know -we were here to protect it until the nation decided what we were going to do with it. Our job was to take care of it, and we feIt...that if we didn't do a good job, the gov't
would get somebody else who would.

12:08 AC: So you were here in 1955, then .

12:13 Bud: Yeah .. J think I was ranger through 1956.

12:20 AC: There was going to be a big celebration ... to mark the 200th anniversary of L&C coming through here -was there anything in 1955 about the 200th anniversary?

12:33 -13:30 BM: Yeah ... we didn't do very much but it was highlighted. We just -we talked to people in the campgrounds ... I remember one packer, Hiney Williams ...my mentor. .. and I thought as a teenager if! could be like Hiney I would have it made .. J remember one time we were sitting on the bunk house porch and some folks drove in and Hiney was sitting there ... asked them where they were going and they said 'We're following L&C' and Hiney said, 'Gee, you're a little bit late -they went through here 150 years ago.' ... But that's about all it was ...

13:33 AC: Were there people then ... how common a thing was it then to find people following the trail of L&C.

13 :40 BM: It was fairly uncommon through here. Lots of people following the trail, but not necessarily following L&C ... But it wasn't highly emphasized, the historical aspect. Even the Lolo trail itself up top there took quite a beating ...

14:23 AC: You talk about the Lolo Trail, the Nez Perce Trail, the L&C Trail-are they all the same trail?

14:30 -16: 15 BM: Yeah, and what the forest is done here -they've created a corridor that encompasses the Nez Perce road ... Nez Perce historic trail. .. And then the Bird Traw operation -that was a military operation -he had a purpose to build a road here. All's thinking of shortcuts -instead of going around to Spokane. He had $50,000 to do that and when he scouted this he saw he couldn't build a wagon road so he improved the old Indian trail. And then the Lolo motorway is another part that they first rode across the mountains ... and it was just a scooped out truck-wide quick road -they called them truck trails then. For fire protection purposes -that's part of this corridor. .. But anyway, there is a corridor that the forest svc is managing now for ..halfmile wide ...it encompasses all these things-they all followed that old route.

16:15 AC: But they -that was the route, that was the way to go?

16:20 BM: Uh huh, that was the way through the mountain, and all of those things I mentioned followed that route.

16:25 AC: In the journals when they talk about this section of the trail, they talk about the most terrible mountains ... the worst road .. .it's pretty tough country -but it's the best road to go, still?

16:47 BM: Yeah, 'cuz they had the best of it -if they'd've had the ... worst they probably never would have made it.

16:56 BM: They were going on a well-traveled trail but they just weren't used to that sort of things...high mountains, coming up the river. To the east of us it's prairie ... When they hit these rocky mountains it's a whole different world for them .... They hit it in the fall when the snows were coming ... They're lucky they got through when they did, because probably another month and they couldn't have possibly got through with stock. That high trail snow is under. .. oh, 12, 14, 16 feet of snow...And so then coming back they had to wait. .. The snow didn't all melt ... but it got down to where it was hard and they could ride right over it with their horses and they could make a pretty good go of it. So¬it's high country up there as you will see. Today you'll get up into some of it when we top out... (18:11)


18:16 BM: When I came in here the first time ...to stay, I built a new cabin...and that was burnt down by the fire service when the road came down ...I had three of them...and this is my home base ...and then the cabins became kind of a nuisance ...With "civilization" comin' in -it was a little bit nasty. So what the forest svc did .. .is they burnt the cabins down...so there wouldn't be squatters in them ...I never burned any of them -they waited 'till I left... Then the old ranger station...built about 1911... The first district-based rangers 19-9 [1909], the forest service got the idea of drawing a boundary around a piece of territory. And then put a ranger in charge of that. Before that there were roving rangers...late 1800s...they were Dep't of Interior... looking for fires, learning the country...So that year, spring of 19-9, they all went out with assignments to their districts. Frank Smith came to this district and right away started building a cabin ...contrary to instruction ... It was a masterpiece .. .It was our cook shack when I came in here ...And then we had a forest supervisor ...he wasn't much for history at all-he wanted to clean up that old stuff, but I wouldn't destroy the old cabin ...But after I left. .. they picked ...the old station down the river here...and they made that their historic ranger station. That's manned now by volunteers...And that's what I kind of had in mind for this one ...(22:40)

22:40 AC: When you first did come down here, were you working with the forest svc. or were you working as a trapper by yourself?

22:44 BM: Well, I came as a trapper ...My first entry was actually in 1925 ...They started the road at Lolo Hot Springs in 1923 and by 1925 they had it up to Lolo Pass. Now this is just a single-lane dirt road with turn-outs here & there. Down on our homestead, we had a neighbor. .. who knew the country well over here ...He was from a wealthy family back east by they paid him a salary to stay away. [BM & AC chuckle] ...

23:35 BM: Joe was a good guy ...so they cooked up the idea, coming up to the pass in Joe's Model T, my dad and him cooked this up, and they wouldn't let me go. I'd a been almost 8...My Dad...thought I'd be too slow to hike-they were gonna hike down this side of the pass to the crooked part ...But Joe talked Dad into letting me go...They were building down this side of the pass -there was two big camps making the cuts, all by hand with horse and scraper and then they had the right 0' way cut almost down to the bottom there ...We stayed a couple days, camped out and fished ...And then we went out -that was my first time ever (24:38)

24:41 BM: But then after that. .. when I was about 12...That was in 1930...Then I come over -that's the first time I ever got up high...South Fork of Lolo and crossed the high country -I was hooked on this country -hooked on the wildness of it. (25: 18) All my friends from school. .. That's the only place I ever went to school, over there, that little woodman school. .. but all of them without exception went more towards the cities...just because of economics and jobs. . ..

25:55 BM: I went away a lot, but keep coming back b/c it is kind of an anchor point for me here -real rich experience go get immersed in something like this 26:12 ...

26:15 - 27:00 BM: This highway was only hooked up in 1962...The major routes of the settlers, they bypassed all these places...too tough..to go through, even though it was the shortest route...Indian routes..already established...so this place never opened up until late. It was in the 50's

27:00 -27:20 BM: What opened it up here ...for development. .. was a spruce bark beetle epidemic ...

28:28 -28:40 BM: So this was a place that stood natural for a lot longer than most of the main routes, and then when it did open up, boy it was kind of a blast -it moved pretty fast.

28:55 AC: We're headed up now -we're going to look for a spring. And Jeff Fee, a Forest Svc. archeologist, believes that he's found this spring mentioned in these journals. But you told us last night that you thought there was a different site for this spring ...which one do you think it is?

29:14 -30:02 BM: Well, it's probably the same. I know that the saddle they camped -I don't think there's any argument about that. And down on the apustric (71?) side ...there was a trail
...We had a pack trail down through there, and that spring was pretty close to that pack trail, and not too far down ...I'm pretty sure Jeff was looking at the same saddle -the same place ...

30:03 AC: It's real interesting that there's still uncertainty where L&C were .. .

30:13 BM: Well, this one here -Jeff found that spring and this is the place ...It's the only place on the whole trip that we'll have any water that we can go to ...So, that's the only place...Certainly what you said applies to a lot of the other camp -there're not in places where you can peg them ...but quite a few of them aren't. .. A forest svc. man named Ehler Scott ...he did some of the early good work on the trail there. And then others have come along (31 :35) ...Ralph Spade ...

32:15 -33:00 BM: They could always tell the general vicinity, but to peg it right down where they camped...Put the question to Jeff-with all that studying...are you finding artifacts and things that confirm...They're finding artifacts but I don't think they're finding too much. Because, you know, they were going pretty light -well, heavy for our day but light for their time -and I don't think they dribbled much. They'd only be one night in a place and then they moved on.

* -AC asked for the above to be indexed -it is really interesting

34:28 JF: We're going on a horseback trip right now, up what we call the Wendover Ridge. It's the ridge that L&C traveled on September 15, 1805. It was probably the roughest part of their whole expedition b/c it is so steep. They lost several horses. [too much background noise].

[AC & G & CJ decide to do it as an address to everybody.]

36: 17 JF: Where we're going is -from this point we're going to get on horseback, as we all know, and we're going to head up what is now referred to as Wendover Ridge. It was probably the roughest part of the Lewis & Clark journey of the whole entire expedition...other than Hungry Creek. .. (36:40)

37:13 -38:14 JF: Also, up this Wendover Ridge, Bud Moore did a certain amt of trapping -he was also a lookout up there. So we're going to be talking to Bud and Norm Steadman, who is sort of our expert on the L&C route ...We're going to be stopping in various places and interviewing these two individuals ...What's really important about this trip is the interview .


38:15 -46:15 JF gives instructions about getting up the mountains / rig placement, getting interviews, etc. Chats w/ Bud about telling his stories. None really interesting -just logistics talk.

46:16 McQuay: saddle-up area again, these are spaced omnis, left and right

46:28 -48: 13 ambi -sounds of people talking while saddling up

48: 15 McQuay: Ok, back recording again, spaced omnis, saddle-up process, left and right ...

48:27 -55: 16 ambi -sounds of people talking while saddling up again -ok after 48:48 -just chatting more than anything, though ... 49: 12 -"did you already have your stirrups adjusted?" 50:35 -hear a horse grunt. One or two more, but with a truck in the background. 54:23 -54:30 -good horse / bridle sounds

55: 17 -1 :00:02 ambi -AC & BM & LB chatting / then truck -more chatting off-mic, not much

1:00:03 -00:30 ambi -better -"see if we can get around hillside" off-mic, then horses grunting, Alex saying "woah"

1 :02:00 -02:30 ambi -"let me check this cinch ...think it's ok. .. feels comfortable? .. "

1:02:30 -04:00 ambi -more saddling up, not much

1 :04:00 -05 :00 ambi -clicking, horses start moving (unfortunately can hear truck in background faintly), "come on, Sundance"

1 :05:55 -07: 18 ambi -good horse walking sounds -sounds like they're walking on gravel, though, and you keep hearing stupid trucks in the background.

1 :07: 19 -10:35 ambi -horse walking sounds -not as gravelly, no trucks, horses pick up to trot, vague chatting off-mic, good horse grunts. Around 1 :08:50 hear dogs howling & barking in the background! kind of cool -though maybe not what y'all are looking for unless you want to pretend you're hearing coyotes ... l :09:50 dogs stop and just horses and people again.(1:10:05 -1:10:35 -dogs again)

1: 10:38 -11 :25 AC: It's 11 o'clock, we've just started the trail through the wood. We're beginning to head for the trail that's going to lead up the mountain (dogs howl! horses in background). There's about a dozen of us all together here. And there are some similarities between the party and L&C in that we have a couple of dogs with us and we have a child. Ned's first girl named Erin.

1:11:25 -12:50ambi -horses now walking on twigs. Hear voices of guides, but great horse grunting, horse breathing, and bridle noises Also breaking twigs, leaves, sounds like they're walking on a trail, intermittent child voice which is cute.

1:13:05 -14:28ambi -more great horse noises, sounds very much like walking on path

1:14:57 -15:24 AC: We're right beside the road ...there's a paving machine out there. That's the Lolo Road that follows down the ...river and runs down into Idaho.

1:15:24 -17:20 ambi -hear horses walking but hear loudly the trucks, cement machine 1:16:40 -16:50 -horses go through water but you can still hear trucks.

1:17:20 -18:IOAC: There's a sign on the side of the trail here that says L&C Trail North. 75/80. But the road, as you can here, is maybe 100 feet away. We're heading up -then ambi
1:18:11-18:50BM: We're right over the Wendover campground ... this is Wendover Creek [pronounces it crik] we just crossed. This is a pretty historic place -the Nez Perce had a fishery right where Wendover Creek goes into the river. We're going up to one of the places that
'L&C -well, that the Indians come down to fish ...

1:19:28 -20:00BM: This is where my home trap cabin was ... Nothing here but owls ...moose...

1 :21: 10 -24:40 ambi -good, without trucks, just faint voices, trail riding. 22 :00 to 22:30 -sounds like walking past water? During 22:00 -can hear horses going faster, nice hoof sound against soft earth with voices, and can hear child's voice faintly a lot

1:25:50-McQuay: Stopping on part of the trail to clear tree ...

1 :26:00 -29:00 ambi -horses walking on trail, but sometimes there's scraping against microphone, too loud, talk that's distracting
**

1:30:30 ambi -walking, talking, hear walkie-talkie, off-mic: "there's no [? ] in Idaho, is there?" "Yeah, but
you got to get way up high ..." 30:59, McQuay tests 31:15, Erin, "Yeah, you've got to get way up high." 31:38 -32:30 -steady horse noises with less talking (though you can still hear some) as they climb the hill

1:32:30 -33:55 ambi -faster horses, esp around 33:30, but it sounds like there's some static on the mic or something -maybe it's just scraping against something as the movement picks up.

1:33:55 -35:00 ambi -1:33:55 -Luke says, "woah, ho .. ho ... ho ... "

1:35:00 -35:54ambi -great horse noise, but fast. Then child voice. Talking off-mic, "I'll run back there, bud..." Walkie-talkie. Bud, " ..I kinda think we shoulda cut back... "

1 :36:00 -38:30 ambi as they try to figure out what's going on -discuss sound folks going back to interview Bud, "kinda ran out of trail.."

1:38:40 -ambi -better -fast horses. Talking off-mic, "Do we have a ? for Bud down here?" "Yeah, I got 'em... " woman: "come on!" then horse snorting. More walking through twigs, 39:50 -40:14 -horse movement, 'come on, Rocky!" "All clear, fellas"

1:41:00 Erin: come on! come on! [Alex was trying to get her to say, "no trot"]
**

1:41:40 McQuay: Ok, we'll pick it up here -split track.

1:41:35 Alex: I just heard you say that you looked about how steep is was ...

1:41:50 -42:37MB: Yeah, you can see why L&C had some trouble getting up to the break of the hill, here [horse whinnies in background], b/c I don't know how the Indian trail went but it was probably steeper than the switchback trail...So, this is where they had the most trouble on the trip up here -was getting up this face. And then from here on after the ridge starts to break, it's pretty good going -nothing like this for topography ... Forest Svc. trail cuts around the knob ...I suppose the old Indian trail went right up the ridge top.
1:42:39 AC: They rolled horses down there?

1:42:42 -43:50 MB: Yeah, that's how they got separated. Some of their party had trouble w/ the horses -I think they left two horses ... and then they went up to the spring and waited, waited quite a long time for them to get up (AC: You figure that's where they rolled the horses?) Somewhere on this face .. .I don't know for sure where it was .. .b/c the journals aren't specific ...But the main party kept going ...Then they all got together up where the spring is. 43:32 Evidently they discovered that spring on their own, although it's quite possible that the Indians traveled this enough so they knew where the spring was or there was horse trails to the spring or something like that.

1:44:07 [Norm, in response to AC question as to whether he had anything to add to Bud's comments] This is the area that they lost the two horses b/c they became separated, and as I remember the journals, Clark went ahead and waited for over an hour at that spring that you were talking about up there. And this is where they left the two horses behind. That's why I'm riding a mule today ... [laughter] ...44:30 -There was probably several Indian trails around here depending on the wind ...There was a fisheries down here ...But the main fisheries trail. .. ended at Wendover, apparent1y ...I don't believe L&C knew they was on the longer route. It was one of the routes, but they were following the road the [? -sounds like sailors but it can't be -maybe the name of a tribe?] had used to get down into the ...Wendover. (45:11) On the 27th of June when they were coming back and...their Indian guides wanted to stop ... and smoke, the guides informed them that. .. some of their men would ... fish...and then would catch back up with their main party...at the Packer Meadows .. .45:45

1:45:50 BM: The one thing that also might have caused them to turn here, is this place we call the Gorge right below at the mouth of the Wendover, and you couldn't go down the river. The first forest svc. trai1... went up over the cliffs ...The Gorge was a major barrier. .. It was tough going down the river. It was a logical turn.. .46:30. It think there are three other trails where the Indian people went down to the river to fish ... [describes them]. Then there was this one. And that forest svc. used all three .. .47:40

1:47:50 -49:00BM: That was a big game lake, too, when the elk were numerous there, and Colgate Lakes and ...hot springs. In the spring, literally 1,000 elk ...Colgate was spectacular -it was all burning there in the '29 burn ...It was open on both side of the river ...big elk trail everywhere you look ... When we'd go down river ...long strings of them...Really were a lot of elk right after World War II. Probably a peak b/c we had all these burns .. .lots of food for them ...then nobody hunting them .. .during the war .. .elk got a breather ...

1 :49:00 -50:00 BM continues talking about elk hunting -not as interesting

1 :50:01 -50:53 Norm: There was a few pockets of elk in here when L&C came also ...Those guides mentioned they wanted to drop down into these -same places ...There were pockets of elk in here but they didn't expand until after the major fires .. .in 1806 and probably well before that.

1:50:55 BM...A theory of mine -they were up high in September, but even in Sept there should have been some elk up there ...They weren't hunters ...but they had people who ...did well out on the prairie ...but when they got in this jungle where they were going was all down, I don't think they did much ...

1:51:33 Norm: I think the other reason, though, is they were not just out hunting, they were trying to survive and they did not want to get down in the brush off of those ridges...exertion they didn't need .

1:51:50 Diane: ...About the fisheries, my grandfather lived in a time when they would set up their fishing camps ...Lots of draws...Lots of stories of the people before us -the big people, the little people. And when they put the salmon out and stuff, they always left some for them and they were always taken. One time my grandfather was telling my brother that they got back to a camp -this was probably early 1900s, 19-1, 19-10 ...¬they had all their salmon drawing, smoking. Every bit of it was one -and it was a lot. .. They did lots at a time. 1 :52:45 -The other thing about elk and deer. .. You read in historical times they used to complain about people coming through and getting their feet all black with the soot. .. l :53:15

1 :53:22 -53:58 Diane: My name is Diane Malleck and I'm a park ranger for the Nat'l Park Service and I work at the Nez Perce National Historical Park .. .I'm enrolled (?) Nez Perce, my mother was Nez Perce, and my father was Paiute and Shoshone. so I've got both that in my heritage. Our people were from this area. I'm a descendent of both Ollicot and Yitsen Melliken (?) [gg note -found Ollicot on Internet to confirm spelling -can't find the other]

1:54:07 Diane: Erin is four ...She had just had that baby ... She went on that expedition when the baby was two weeks old. I guess what I admire -we have a few oral stories and histories that were left with Many Wounds (?), Piopiotalet (?), Yellow Wolf-and there's quite a few others ...They only talked with other witnesses ...Back in those times they never shared information with ...white people ...But those stories are fantastic b/c most of the written oral information we have left today is mostly on York, it's not on L&C, and there's quite a bit about Sacagawea. . .. York. .. was real musical, and he was kind of an entertainer, but the Nez Perce were quite interested in him and talked about the things he did...Treated him as an equal...56:16

1:56:30 -57:55 Diane: Sacagawea was actually very honored ...I always thought they probably felt sorry
for her .. .In actuality, according to our elders, she was very honored and they actually
wanted her to stay there ...High worker ...The little guy ...would play with the Nez Perce
kids...In that initial contact they were very suspicious b/c she was Shoshone, and we'd
lost about seven villages to the Shoshone ...but she was pretty honored. The story goes
that several of those guys even went back and visited her in her old age. So there is
some conflict btw. what historians say ...as opposed to what the Nez Perce says what
she's doing...

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